Cochise route chopped, take 2

Shawn Mitchell wrote: EDIT: England, I think he means *you* missed Forest's sarcasm.

You got me there, I'm certainly not very sharp/witty these days due to inactivity. I hope everything works out for you guys. I LOVE Tucson, and spent 7 seven wonderful years there. I've been to the Stronghold many times mountain biking, but have never climbed there. Good luck to all involved. Life is too short to be angry.....

England wrote: Life is too short to be angry.....

Yea! Be happy!

Geir, we're gonna need you to update that 'lessons learned' list. I sure have learned allot:

1. if you're hung like a horse, you probably really *aren't*
2. if you're *not*... well, you might just be (everything's relative, right?)
3. if you've ever heard "awwww, it's so cuuute", see #1 and beg Jon for a beer to drown your sorrows in
4. i'll be bringing my own tent the next time Dudley and i camp out ;) (Tals strikes me as the jealous type)

Damn it!

Tombstone is nearby. Rent the OK corral and give the warring parties each a power drill. Then have a cage fight type battle in the corral a la rotohammer to the head. I think a beer & BBQ festival should then follow, along with a drunken bolting session just to piss everyone off. Sell tickets, beer, fund climbing trip somewhere.

Wow, this is better than my favorite soap..

And I love all you guys even rickd :-)

Christian wrote:Wow, this is better than my favorite soap.. And I love all you guys even rickd :-)

I knew you couldn't hold out forever! hehe ;)

Dan Cohen wrote: This would provide a level playing field and Scott would surely attend.

Dan Cohen, are you suggesting that Scott Ayers can't explain himself in writing. Do you really believe that?

Eric Rhicard wrote:Mike D. Can SA make changes to you or Daryl's routes at Sweet Rock?A

Still waiting for your response Mike Diesen.

Eric Rhicard wrote: If you guys really think about it does anyone else who puts up routes in Southern Arizona get BASHED? Why do you think that is? Hell does anyone in Arizona? I have been putting up stuff for years but I don't fear this site and I am not afraid to post up and take my lumps. I think you guys sit and listen to Scott's tales of persecution and believe it is all so undeserved. Anyone attacked Andy Peters, Tony Horness, Me, Jim Scott, Ray Ringle, Mike Head, Dave DesChamps Tony Lusk. NO. I wonder why?

Still waiting for responses from all of you guys who seem to be protecting Scott Ayers.

Eric Rhicard wrote:Scott has chopped the Beaver Wall, twice I think. Moved another parties anchors at Munchkinland without talking to them. Told people not to cross his routes when Endgame crosses five and there are many other examples of this. Talked about not chiseling and did it, told everyone they should not steal other peoples routes and finished one at Munchkinland by "working" it down to his level, then said he thought it was the guys from NOLS putting it up. So it is okay to snake a route from the NOLS guys! he has also chopped a route on Sheepshead that was lead by Dave Jones in bold style. He also bolted over a very run out route on Sheepshead that Dave lead ground up with almost no pro.

Diesen, Jon R., Dudley, Daryl. What do you think about this stuff. For the record "working" means chiseling. Did Scott ever mention any of this to you guys? I dare you to ask him.

I am not posting here to smear Scott Ayers, his actions over the years and finally on Endgame say more than I can. I merely point it out so you guys in the climbing community will stand up and say to Scott or anyone else who pulls this crap, it is not okay. That is all you have to do unless you want other guys doing what Scott did.

How about any one of you who has read this or posted answer this question. Should anyone do what Scott Ayers did on End Pinnacle? Just answer the question.

Eric,

No, I'm not suggesting that Scott can't explain himself.

By the way, yes, Scott did mention some of that stuff you listed. I'm not here to defend Scott's actions.

I've spent the last few days moving to Phoenix, so I haven't spent much time on the computer. I'm in Chicago right now visiting my brother and his wife for the next 8 days. I am heading off on a camping trip for a few days tomorrow with my brother, so I will be away from the computer. I am happy to get more in depth with this when I get back to Phoenix (where I am living for a few months). I would gladly chat about this on the phone or even over a cold beer. I'll post up when I get back.

Dan

More conflict? I think someone missed out on the "penis come out drink beer get Dudley excited relieve tension smoke cigarette". Daryl, get your huge penis ready for more action.

Eric Rhicard wrote:How about any one of you who has read this or posted answer this question. Should anyone do what Scott Ayers did on End Pinnacle? Just answer the question.

Is that an invitation to the peanut gallery? I read the thread today, found it troubling, very entertaining, and sad. Here are a few conclusions:

I already knew Ruland was a funny guy. Daryl is funnier than Shiite (and I think his wife has a hardware fetish), APT's comment about Indian spirits was classic, and Scott McN's four sentence summary was one of the funniest posts I've read on MP. You're a hilarious quality crew.

If certain posted accounts are true, Scott A., whatever else good may be said of him, has done and said some indefensible things. Some of those things have splashed on you. You justly resent it. (I don't know if your bill of health is perfectly clean, but posts have been more explicit about Scott A.)

Now here's where I piss you off: You are poisoned with it and you keep drinking the poison. Because your accusation is righteous (it appears) you demand that bystanders and the universe join you in condemning the sins. Any attempt by human beings to make human allowances, and not condemn a mutual friend triggers your resentment and cross-examination. You seek satisfaction through laying bare genuine faults, and seeing your peers nod their agreement.

I'm sorry friend, it's a dead end. God didn't make your soul to be fed or comforted that way. (Nor did natural selection/evolution if that's your prism: righteous indignation is an expensive emotion with little utility in the survival sweepstakes.) Your desire to see Scott A called out for his actions is hurting you far more than him or anyone else.

None of my business and I'll probably delete this in the morning. But you asked. You practically demanded. And I decided to tell you how it looks even to someone who is persuaded you are "right."

Shawn Mitchell wrote: That an invitation to the peanut gallery? I read the thread today, found it troubling, very entertaining, and sad. Here are a few conclusions: I already knew Ruland was a funny guy. Scott McN's four sentence summary was one of the funniest posts I've read on MP. If certain posted accounts are true, Scott A., whatever else good may be said of him, has done and said some indefensible things. Some of those things have splashed on you. You justly resent it. (I don't know if your bill of health is perfectly clean, but posts have been more explicit about Scott A.) Now here's where I piss you off: you are poisoned with it and you keep drinking the poison. Because your accusation is righteous (it appears) you demand that bystanders and the universe join you in condemning the sins. Any attempt by human beings to make human allowances, and not condemn a mutual friend triggers your resentment and cross-examination. You seek satisfaction through laying bare genuine faults, and seeing your peers nod their agreement. I'm sorry friend, it's a dead end. God didn't make your soul to be fed or comforted that way. (Nor did natural selection/evolution if that's your prism: righteous indignation is an expensive emotion with little utility in the survival sweepstakes.) Your desire to see Scott A called out for his actions is hurting you far more than anyone else. None of my business and I'll probably delete this in the morning (empasis mine). But you asked. You practically demanded. And I decided to tell you how it looks even to someone who is persuaded you are "right."

Haha no deleting it now!

Those SoAZ guys talk about each others penises and everyone seems happy. They talk about climbing and everyone seems unhappy. Good thing I'm heading up north next w/e!

NoAZ climbers don't seem to argue as much. Well, unless they're bitching about us Phoenix climbers!

Oh and FWIW, if someone chopped one of my routes I'd be pissed. Then again, it is kind of hard to chop a trad route.

Eric Rhicard wrote: Diesen, Jon R., Dudley, Daryl. What do you think about this stuff. For the record "working" means chiseling. Did Scott ever mention any of this to you guys? I dare you to ask him.

eric, i'll talk to you about this stuff when we climb tomorrow.

Eric,

Way to go calling it like it is. And I think you're right, it's important for the folks who've been posting here to weigh in on your questions!

I'm out in the wilderness for a few days. Looking forward to seeing the responses.

Jon Ruland wrote: eric, i'll talk to you about this stuff when we climb tomorrow.

Eric, I'm sure this isn't what you wanted to hear but Jon kinda beat me to it. Though we don't climb together, given the amount of mutual acquaintances we share i feel it's only a matter of time until we do meet. I would rather you get a 1st hand impression of me before i start spewing opinions on a complex matter such as this from behind a keyboard. I've heard nothing but praise about you from everyone that knows you (including Scott) and am attempting to not get off on the wrong foot with anyone here i haven't met [in person] yet.

IOW, if you're going to dislike me, do so because of the way i look, smell, or grab-ass, but not because of the way i came across on a web forum (i'm usually well into the ales by the time i get to the keyboard).

Please accept my abstaining from your question(s) but i will say this: Aside from the small number of people intimately involved in this saga from the very beginning, i feel there are few that can speak with any authority on this delicate matter. Yes, i can answer questions regarding how i might react to particular situations but the bottom line here is that i realize that a short four years here makes me a newcomer to the area. I've made a conscious effort to remain neutral in issues like this from the moment i caught wind of their existence. I'm not faulting anyone here for providing their opinions on the matter regardless of their knowledge thereof; i simply choose not do the same unless i were more involved and felt i could voice an opinion based more solidly on facts i know to be true and fair to all concerned parties.

How's that for politically correct? Man, I could be a senator.

Nice dodge to the questions Daryl. But it would be nice if you guys would answer the questions because in the end it isn't about me and Scott Ayers. In the end it is about what is acceptable practice in our climbing community. I am not asking you guys to dislike Scott, I am asking you and everyone else to condemn his actions. As I said before if you don't and you continue to put up routes in the stronghold it will happen to you. It took some other issues between Geir and Scott for Geir to see that the public Scott and the Scott that PM's everyone, or sneaks up to End Pinnacle, and is afraid to post is all about. So I just want answers to basic questions of what you guys think is acceptable. But if you would rather say it to me in person where Scott will not see it in writing then you will make a great politician.

Eric Rhicard wrote:Nice dodge to the questions Daryl. But it would be nice if you guys would answer the questions because in the end it isn't about me and Scott Ayers. In the end it is about what is acceptable practice in our climbing community. I am not asking you guys to dislike Scott, I am asking you and everyone else to condemn his actions. As I said before if you don't and you continue to put up routes in the stronghold it will happen to you. It took some other issues between Geir and Scott for Geir to see that the public Scott and the Scott that PM's everyone, or sneaks up to End Pinnacle, and is afraid to post is all about. So I just want answers to basic questions of what you guys think is acceptable. But if you would rather say it to me in person where Scott will not see it in writing then you will make a great politician.

i will ask scott about this next time i see him. if i think he didn't have a good reason for doing what he did, i will ask him why he thought it would be a good idea to throw fuel on an already raging fire of controversy.

i can't condemn him though. i hate controversy and i just don't have the balls you do to call somebody out on something like this. mine are like grapes compared to your grapefruits. tiny, seedless grapes. that have been out in the sun a while. so like, raisins. or something.

long story short i don't want to take a side in this conflict.