Draws stolen off the "Cure for the Common Crimp" at Shelf

My draws were stolen sometime during the week.

I know there is group on here that believes you shouldn't leave draws on a route, and it's your own fault if they get stolen.

But come on, how can someone possibly justify in their head that is ok to take something that doesn't belong to them? Maybe I am just too much of a Pollyana.

Regardless, the draws were the the light-weight Madrock draws that have a silver biner on one side and a red biner on the other.

I am sure there is no chance of ever getting them back, but just in case someone hears something, I would appreciate it.

I am removing my posts because this thread has turned negative, and I feel my viewpoint precipitated much of it. Sorry for that.

Anyway, do as you like with your draws. This issue is not worth ill will.

Climbers are bumb, bumbs steal. Kill all the climbers!!!

Didn't you ever watch Beavis and Butthead?

"Dude, it's not nailed down, that means it's ours!"

Any climber good enough to get on that route should KNOW the reason ALL of the draws are there hanging.. its not like 1 was left as a bail biner. To be climbing that grade, you must be aware of what projecting means, so you know those draws aren't abandoned property. Therefore, I'd consider removal of the draws by said climber is theft.
Unfortunately this will be a battle much like those of the bolt wars... will never end.. good luck and I hope your gear ends up in correct hands

Evan1984 wrote:Generally speaking(and correct me if there is a legal precedent to the otherwise in regards to draws on routes) items left unattended on public property are considered abandoned. Abandoned items that are picked up by other people are not considered stolen, they are considered scavenged. Evan

Your legal analysis is deeply flawed.

I leave my car parked at the parking lot at Shelf. I certainly do not consider it abandoned, and I expect it to be there when I get back. Even if I park my car illegally on public property, only the police (or a towing service operating under license) has the right to remove it. Even then, it remains my car (subject to paying fines, perhaps).

Bottom line: my stuff is my stuff, even when I'm not watching it. Taking other people's stuff without the intention of returning it is stealing.

PRRose wrote: Your legal analysis is deeply flawed. I leave my car parked at the parking lot at Shelf. I certainly do not consider it abandoned, and I expect it to be there when I get back. Even if I park my car illegally on public property, only the police (or a towing service operating under license) has the right to remove it. Even then, it remains my car (subject to paying fines, perhaps). Bottom line: my stuff is my stuff, even when I'm not watching it. Taking other people's stuff without the intention of returning it is stealing.

Sorry, this is not accurate. Titled autos are different than your climbing gear under the law. Not as simple as you make it although perhaps it should be. Titles are a funky legal document whereas the state has an "ownership" so to speak. Without going into the details the state can take away you car for certain legal reason. You car also generates revenue for them. You climbing gear is not the same. Just fyi.

Dude- some of you are fucked in the head to think that these examples are not stealing, the thing about the state owning the car and the lawnmower... whatever. i wouldnt leave my stuff behind unless i was campin out below the route or hanging on the route, so leaving your stuff behind wasnt a good idea but fuck you ppl that think it was all his fault and that stealing is not stealing. if your shit gets STOLEN i dont want to read how pissed you are when you post your own situation.

It would be different it brett left the draws at the top or bottom of the route unattended, then someone could find them and consider them abandoned (some ppl would post a lost and found, not everyone but still) these were left clipped and climbers know when they come on a route that is bolted/preplaced gear the gear isnt up for grabs, if the gear was there with a note sayin take me thats a different story! i dont think brett left a note!

Sorry about the drews dude and hopefully the turn up but chances are they wont i guess next time you wont leave your gear for someones sticky fingers

Greg D wrote: Sorry, this is not accurate. Titled autos are different than your climbing gear under the law. Not as simple as you make it although perhaps it should be. Titles are a funky legal document whereas the state has an "ownership" so to speak. Without going into the details the state can take away you car for certain legal reason. You car also generates revenue for them. You climbing gear is not the same. Just fyi.

Titling is irrelevant. Change car to bicycle if you want; same result.

damn, this topic comes up a lot. first off, sorry about your draws.

Second, it is stupid to talk about how the LAW sees this; permanent or hung overnight draws are something that internal consensus among climbers determines.

For almost all sport climbers, a route with draws left on it means that it is being worked and do not take them; if there is just one draw on a route, it probably means that someone bailed. Since ALL serious sport climbers know this, the only people who think taking draws is acceptable are traddies, rappelers, or just plain assholes.

The bottom line is that there are some areas, unfortunately, where it is not safe to leave hung draws: they are usually vertical, with easy access for rappellers (Shelf Road), or areas with both sport and trad where many visitors do not understand ethics (City of Rocks). Steeper areas with stronger consensus and more interaction between all climbers, such as the Red River Gorge or Maple Canyon, are usually safer areas to leave draws.

Oh, and no matter what the local variances are of an area, if YOU are taking draws for yourself off of a route, you are a prick. That is all.

camhead wrote:damn, this topic comes up a lot. first off, sorry about your draws. Second, it is stupid to talk about how the LAW sees this; permanent or hung overnight draws are something that internal consensus among climbers determines. For almost all sport climbers, a route with draws left on it means that it is being worked and do not take them; if there is just one draw on a route, it probably means that someone bailed. Since ALL serious sport climbers know this, the only people who think taking draws is acceptable are traddies****(um- nooo. Trad, sport, boulder- we are all climbers and all know the expectations and standards)***, rappelers, or just plain assholes. - Oh, and no matter what the local variances are of an area, if YOU are taking draws for yourself off of a route, you are a prick. That is all.

I agree, edited a bit for clarity. This is about climber standards and ethics, not law. Leaving gear is practiced, however, a risk. The larger % will respect and, always and everywhere, a certain % will not. If you take the risk, make sure it is calculated.

"Its 10% about what happens to you- 90% how you choose to react to it"- Winston Churchill

Sorry to say I was up there wendsday and they were already gone. I know how you must feel, cheated. I have had draws taken from Clear Creek, Penitente and Table Mtn. The 2 latter of these happened while I was eating lunch on a busy day. I watch ed some gumby nearly tyko stepping in slings to retrieve his new booty. When he got down quit proud of himself I mearly finished my meal and asked for the gear back. The tools angrily told me some crap about law and property too but after some seasoned climbers stepped up to back me and I offered to remove his teeth he surrendered. Also once the same thing happened at penitente and ended with the gumby threatening me! Saying it was his right to scavenge old dangerous gear (they were brand new spirits). The point is that its up to the community to teach each other what's acceptable. You can climb on any of my gear you find just don't steal it. And at the very least ask who's it is! Eg. Who's draws are on third millennium or sonic youth. My lesson learned is to never leave gear in areas frequented by gumbys, tools, skippy flat landers or adults acting like children. I see baby strollers and bounce houses at table and shelf all the time. Try a safer place like Rifle, Monastery or RMNP in the future.
On a side note: I have been climbing at these places doing sport routes as clean trad. I have no use for those ringy things on the wall, may I remove them. I know there not mine but someone left them there fair, square and I own a wrench and hammer.
Also: to whoever stole my draws from clear creek, that gear was so funked and fractured that's why it was there. I once pitched those draws off El Cap so good luck and wear a helmet.

I think the only place in the state where I would leave my draws and seriously be shocked if they were stolen is Rifle. Shelf, especially Cactus, has just too many relative newbs to even consider it. I've left draws on Deeper Shade of Soul for 2 weeks before and never had a problem, but that route is WAY out at the end of the Gym.

One can stick-clip aid equip a route in about 20 minutes, and the yarding gets your heart rate up too. If you actually drive away from the crag leaving the draws behind, you should expect the worst.

Yes, it sucks that there are pricks out there; but that's just how it is.

Greg D wrote: Sorry, this is not accurate. Titled autos are different than your climbing gear under the law. Not as simple as you make it although perhaps it should be. Titles are a funky legal document whereas the state has an "ownership" so to speak. Without going into the details the state can take away you car for certain legal reason. You car also generates revenue for them. You climbing gear is not the same. Just fyi.

You might be able to get around the legal idea that the property was abandoned based on the fact that the Access Fund (private) owns the land that Cure is on and is not BLM, National Forest, City land/city park, navigable waterway, or any other type of land that could be considered public. Threaten to sue for trespass to chattels if you find the guy.

Oh, personally I vote to let a hanging draw remain.

the thing is, I HATE seeing climbers bring up legal arguments in this whole thing. Climbing is largely internally self-regulated on issues of bolting, red-tagging, fixed anchors (with the exception of some wildernes areas).

If all of us made it a point to educate people new to the sport on the differences between fixed draws and booty, we would not be having this discussion, and people would certainly not be bringing up idiotic points about "abandoned property" or car title parallels or whining about what laws do or do not support their arguments.

leaving draws is like littering!!!! I'm glad someone cleaned up your mess!!!

My intention was not to start a fire storm, or a witch hunt, or beat up the offenders, etc. I was just wondering if someone saw something or knew something.

I understand that when you leave something behind you run a risk, and I certainly have learned my lesson, even though in my 30 plus years of climbing I have never had something like this happen before.

BrettPierce wrote:...in my 30 plus years of climbing I have never had something like this happen before.

Your profile says you're only 37 - so you must have been a tot when you started climbing! Was anyone else holding the cursor over the Flag button and just wanting to click it for a certain reply to this forum?

BrettPierce wrote:in my 30 plus years of climbing I have never had something like this happen before.

And your 37. Wicked.

I started when I was 14, and that was 25 years ago. I lead all the pitches on the Naked Edge in the 9th grade and I thought I was slightly advanced(by early-mid 1980's standard). Who took you climbing between 7-16 years old, maybe your dad or uncle?

Oh yah, hope you get your draws back. Mine got stolen 15 years ago in clear creek off of "3 points of Contact". I haven't left a draw since, that I ever wanted to see again.

Kateri Aren't wrote: Your profile says you're only 37 - so you must have been a tot when you started climbing! Was anyone else holding the cursor over the Flag button and just wanting to click it for a certain reply to this forum?

My father was a climber, so yes, I have been climbing since I was a little kid.