Crazyness on the Third Flatiron

I have always stayed away from these e “discussions”, but Its late and I can’t sleep so what the hell...

Back to the original question, I think that If someone put a bolt there a dozen climbers would (and should) be lined up the next day with crow bars. If someone with inadequate experience / skill went up there and hurt them selves, it would be their fault. A large part of the value of climbing is self responsibility and reliance in real, natural situations with very real consequences. If this bothers you, stay in the gym or play video games. I don’t understand the argument that just because there are already bolts its ok to put in more. Just because someone burns down half of a forest doesn't mean you might as well destroy the rest of it.

I really hope that Phil’s friend and John’s opinions are not common amongst climbers in my general age group. I think that any young Colorado climber should check out (or buy) a copy of Climb! a history of climbing in Colorado, and read it cover to cover. Inside you’ll find pictures from the 30’s of people soloing that last pitch in boots and hoop skirts with huge smiles. Oh, and then they down climbed it, because the rap route didn’t exist yet.

I truly don't consider myself an elitist because I disagree with bolting the 5.4 pitch of the Third Flatiron that was climbed over one-hundred years ago and is now spray painted. And, please understand that it is not my intention for someone to get hurt while leading this pitch because there isn't a bolt there. My point is this: adding a bolt on the final pitch of the Third Flatiron would take away the experience and adventure of leading it. (I'm not sure if the point of my discussion is understood).

Thousands of people have led this pitch over the past century without a bolt there. Maybe it's the beginning of bolting every pitch that is runout. I hope not.

Sigh. Well, the Cult of the Bolt and the Cult of the Anti-Bolt are just 2 more religions. Expect rancorous debate. When you settle this one so that all agree, head for Palestine and go fix their issues.

So that you know what my Cult is, here ya' go: You can dumb everything down until it's all safe, then the user group will be so dumb that nobody is safe.
Variety is the spice of life.

There isn't a route on earth that doesn't have someone who shouldn't be on it, so we can't reduce each route to the level at which it's safe for the lowest person on the totem pole that might want to climb it.

Not every monkey gets to climb every tree.

Never mind the fact that there IS other gear on that pitch.

I am very surprised to see this strand go on and on. (and yes I do appreciate the hypocrisy of posting at this point!) However, this debate has a long history in public forums in Boulder. Please ask someone about the debates surrounding the proposed bolt placements on the 4th pitch of Superslab and the 1st pitch of Calypso. As most warnings on new gear note…”climbing is an inherently dangerous activity.” If that does not fit into your personal risk taking profile, please refrain from attempting to participate in this sport!

No way on a bolt. I don't like that pitch, it makes me a bit nervous as the moves are terribly great, and a fall would be bad. That's one of those places were the rope keeps you from falling off the face, not from getting hurt. BUT, what a rush when you finally grab that anvil and sling it!!! Sure a bolt would be "nice" but I in no way think it should be added. Plus I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure I got at least ONE piece in somewhere above the ledge. Spicy for sho, and toping out after that pitch really makes the climb worth it!

Hopefully this thread comes to an end soon, I feel that I never should have started it.... My views on the subject remain unchanged, for the record. I do not agree with my friend and John's opinion. There should be no bolt on that pitch. There is no reason for it. I took an upside down 25 foot whipper on the yellow spur a few weeks back because i got WAY off route and got in WAY over my head on inadequately placed protection. I chose the risks, I chose my path, I saw the lack of bolts above me, yet I still thought I could do it. And I don't regret it. I learned a lot of important lessons, didn't get seriously hurt, and ultimately have a cool story. I believe that the last pitch of the 3rd flatiron is part of what makes it fun, because of the risk: Not EVERYONE would do it. And I'm kind of a masochist...like all climbers.

Not all climbers are masochists, interested in spicyness, or give a shit about another bolt on the Third flatiron. Some people actually enjoy the act of climbing a rock - with ropes, adequate protection, and safer falls. Some would find the Third MORE enjoyable with a few more bolts. and guess what...that's ok. Much to "trad" climbers dismay all of climbing doesn't revolve around their view of the world.

However, then you have the Sport Park and the Third is public property - hence these discussions won't end any time soon.

Stu Ritchie wrote:... Please ask someone about the debates surrounding the proposed bolt placements on the...1st pitch of Calypso.

Some have been asking for a bolt there? Wow. I have always gotten pro right off the deck coming in from the left. I assume that's where the bolt was proposed.

This sort of discussion is worth having if for no other reason than to occasionally poll the climbing community, if in a gross way.

I heard they outlawed Hanson's secret bouldering cave up by the gash; found it was too sporty.

If you put a bolt there you should probably make the whole thing a sport route. That way no one would ever feel nervous about climbing a committing multi-pitch line. Then everyone who has some draws can enjoy a great climb...what a crock.

As climbers we should raise ourselves to the level of the climb, not lower the climb to our level. I do agree, the section is a bit on the run out side, but so is the rest of the climb. Bolting the short run out section would open the door to protecting the rest of the run outs on the climb with bolts...scary

I know from personal experience that that section has been downclimbed ropeless, on acid, at night in a rainstorm wearing tennis shoes.
I see no need for a bolt.

Tom,

that sounds like the making of an interesting trip report

Actually that is what some are looking for: a nice 500-1,000 bolted route up the flatirons. You may not like it, but for a lot of people that would be pretty cool.

So if someone can solo a route there is no need for bolts? enough with the "look how I soloed the Third" I'm so cool. Should we give all you guys a medal for TUFFness.

I think they is a little bit of a respect issue here.

I cannot climb lots of routes around here but I do not think it is proper for me to make it safer or easier. For example, Country club cracks feels like I am going to fall and get that pointer boulder up my butt but Derek Hersey soloed it in 8 minutes.

I respect this. Also, isn't a big run-out where you think you are going to die part of the climbing experience?

Seriously, we all have our limits and not everyone gets a ribbon.

Kevin

FYI, for those of you that are new to the game. When a route is created (sport, trad, whatever), the first ascensionist decides the style and difficulty of the route for all future ascents. To change the nature of a climb after it is put up is disrespectful to the FA team and disrespectful to the climbing community in general. This isn't about trad versus sport or bolters versus bolt-choppers. This is about respect for the FA, plain and simple. If a change is deemed necessary on a certain route, all effort should be made to consult with the FA team or at least to respect their intentions.

If you want climbing to be safer, you should stick to routes that were put up in a style that you find to be within your margin of safety. There are plenty of routes out there for all of us.

Brooks,

Well put. Look at what somethings have been turned into, seriously "I climbed Mt. Everest with 10 sherpas and 50 bottles or oxygen" kinda ruined that climb.

I was ice climbing this weekend and all of these people where saying when they do big mountains they take Viagra to get a kick. What the hell is that crap.

Honestly, if everyone shows a little respect (by driving slower through Eldo, appreciating other peoples skills ...) we will all be much more happy.

Kevin

Still wondering if anyone has actually fallen off of this pitch. Anyone? Bueller.....?

Get better or get a better partner! Don't add bolts to other peoples routes w/o asking first. Try getting there first. Any one can be a critic but it takes vision and effort to establish a great new route!

This might sum it up:

ANYONE WHO THINKS IT SHOULD BE BOLTED WATCH THIS VIDEO

youtube.com/watch?v=cSKY3Uh…

can't you still free solo a route with bolts? can't you still not clip bolts where you think it's easy? are you guys really climbing 5.4's to get your thrills?