Disturbing Actions at new local area

Fat Dad wrote: OK. So I agree that any form of climbing has some impact. But your point is kind of a Zeno's Paradox of impact. I'm not sure if you're engaging in an empirical discussion about human use in general or defending the use of bolts in every possible situation.

My point is directed entirely at the "not impacting the rock" statement. Just pointless pedantry, really. What I'm saying is that we can't completely eliminate our impact on the rock short of not climbing. Minimizing impact to the rock is an excellent justification to really examine the necessity of any given bolt you might place. But that's where it stops. At you.

I'd really like to see photographs of the route in question, and evidence that the route has gone before without the bolts, before I pass judgment either way. Barring that, I refuse to criticize the bolters or the choppers, other than to say that chopping has just as much impact on the rock as drilling, if not more, and most self-righteous choppers don't have the decency to camouflage their work.

I'd be curious to see how alot of these bolt choppers act in regards to the rest of their lives. In solar power homes or absolutely eco friendly? Or is protecting a rock in the woods the only stance that is taken? I just wonder if it is something like Al Gore, who talks about the environment and then spends several thousand a month on an electricity bill.

I'd like to see things protected as much as the next person, but I'm a little more concerned with people scratching their name in a sandstone tower or leaving trash on the ground, than adding a couple bolts to a rock face. I'm not in favor of bolting routes you can protect either, but I'm not going to lecture anybody as I throw my cigarette butt on the ground or drive a gas guzzler around. Ethics are important but I think we have bigger problems that should be addressed.

People should look at the big picture... My .02...

Hi Scott - I think that the minimize bolting argument goes beyond environmental impact. Other things to think about are:

1) The impression on land managers made by bolting.

2) Although changing an established TR to a bolted lead (if that's the case here - that seems to be unclear) isn't a big deal when looking at the big picture, it does break that rule of not altering established routes. While it may not be a big deal here, making exceptions in one case opens the door to bigger problems in the future.

By respecting the style of first ascentionists and local ethics, we're able to create the balance of "bolts every 4 feet" sport climbs and adventure climbs that needs to exist in the climbing community.

Well I guess I opened up a can of worms. I simply wanted to stimulate a conversation about what I find to be a troubling incident. I purposely didn't name the crag, the bolt choppers or the ascensionists of the bolted lines. My purpose is not to place blame but to try and prevent this from happening again . Unfortunately it seems that the folks responsible have not entered this discussion, and I would also like to know if anyone had climbed here prior to any of the bolts being placed. Here's what I know. The climbers that bolted these lines are well respected local climbers that have numerous quality first ascents to their credit. Upon "finding" the crag a few months ago they found no evidence that anyone had climbed here before. I have lived an climbed here for 20 years and had never heard of this place, but apparently it had been visited sporadically for over 20 years,and no route information had ever been written down. So, The guys that bolted the routes had no knowledge what so ever that they might be climbing existing routes. They made a judgment call as to how best equip the route. I thought they did a good job. Then last week two other individuals had either climbed there before or talked to someone that had. I believe they could have done a little social networking prior to their actions so that they could addressed their concerns. Bottom line is nobody bolted anything with prior knowledge of it having been climbed, and this area went overnight from unknown to a pretty popular destination. It would be a shame if any further destruction occurs here or any where else. Thanks for listening. The Dr.

Sounds like you guys could benefit from an MP Beer Night down there...

The area is not in any books in your climbing library, so dont bother. Toula mentions something in rock and road about 'out of the way cranking' up there, with no directions or route info. Is it the same area? no way to know without asking Tim himself. Like David said, certainly hardly anyone (if anyone at all) went up there before these lines were bolted. Now its a popular local crag.

Ooh so they chopped the warmups. All bolt clippers are now quaking in their boots. Why are these guys hating? Sure you could toprope probably anything that goes as a sport line. You going to go chop them all? That is ridiculous reasoning. If these lines were "established topropes", how come nobody knew about them before they were bolted and climbed regularly over the last few months?

I know and respect the first ascentionists. Does that make them infallible? Certainly not. Were they wrong to go put up new lines at a previously unknown crag? I don't believe they were. I believe the actions of the choppers to be ridiculous and reprehensible. Are we going to have a bolt war now? The rock will be the real loser of that one, scarred and disfigured. It makes me sad.

-T

Ian F. wrote: I mean it is on public land, thus we all have the right to see it.

Sure you have the right! Go on up there and see for yourself. No one is stopping you.

Ian F. wrote:Or do we have to be in the clique, and wait for a guide book to purchase. Post some pics at least. Sounds promising.

... or you could just go into the gym and ask for directions. :)

Tavis Ricksecker wrote: ... or you could just go into the gym and ask for directions. :)

Or someone could add it to the database with directions. Maybe some Photo's etc. That would also be helpful. I am not a big fan of gyms anyway. Where on Elden is it located?

location of SECRET CRAG ON THE MOUNTAIN: look north, the place is visible from town!! park on FS road, hike up FS trail, and follow well beaten social trail to base of cliff. of course people have climbed there before, but i echo others in saying that if no one knows about your obscure TR don't get all butt hurt when the place gets developed and your TR becomes a lead climb. also, how come nobody has brought up the point that the crag is in the wilderness?! don't get me wrong, i love bolts, the more the better, wilderness be damned, but i doubt the choppers had truly altruistic environmental motives behind their efforts. nor do i think they just wanted to stir things up for fun, which i could respect for sheer renegadeness. chopping routes disrespects someones voluntary donation of time, money, and effort for the good of the climbing community. if THE CHOPPERS had approached the developers with their concerns i bet the first ascentionist would have removed their bolts, unknowing placed on an already established climb.

a parallel topic i've never seen discussed is the improvement of boulder problem landings on already established problems. to me this is the very same as retro bolting, chopping for fun ect. just as bolts next to an established trad climb change the climbing experience, so too does leveling a sloping landing or removing a boulder beneath a problem. this has been an ongoing problem here in flag and i have seen several of my own dangerous first ascents babied down to gym status. it is generally obvious to any seasoned new router if a climb has been climbed on before, and if it has and you want to change it ask around the community and find out who has been there before, you never know what they might say. what i'm getting at is the primacy of the first ascent be it trad, sport, or boulder.

I just want to say thanx for those of you who took the time to come out swinging and thinking... Jimbo, thank you for you levened insights, Paul D. thank you for being there to spread some old school reality and honesty. To the rest of you who aren't afraid to climb for fun, as well as constantly pushing yourselves, good to hear it.

I think the group that feels that climbing is supposed to be about risking your life every single time you tie in, will, given scientific theory, dispose of themselves by the not too distant future. They have too much invested in their own self image to accept change, to accept the fact that folks climb for all sorts of reasons, or too just tolerate the fact that folks climb for all sorts of reasons; I am sorry for your misery.

And Burlyman, if your post is not an edited joke, the irony of it has been making me chuckle off and on since I first read it...

JJ

Jeremy Schlick wrote:I think the group that feels that climbing is supposed to be about risking your life every single time you tie in, will, given scientific theory, dispose of themselves by the not too distant future. They have too much invested in their own self image to accept change, to accept the fact that folks climb for all sorts of reasons, or too just tolerate the fact that folks climb for all sorts of reasons; I am sorry for your misery. JJ

OK. So let's just bolt everything so the lowest common demoninator doesn't have to feel scared when they go climbing. Great idea! Thanks!

BTW, the scientific theory you're espousing isn't too scientific given the number of old crusty climbers chiming in on bolting and ethics.

Fat Dad,

I am not going to hold it against you that you live in LA, and I have to assume, you are not savvy with the local scene out here. But, since you continue to chime in I have to say once again, that the climbers I climb with out here are not a bunch of punters as it seems like you want so badly to believe. We spend roughly ninety percent of our time on gear routes well into the 5.12 range... I myself have gone out sport climbing, at and actual sport crag, once or twice in the last year. Flagstaff climbers are certainly not the "lowest common denominator" as you imply, and have no intention of bolting everything as you say. I said previously, that it is nice not to have to risk your life "every" time you tie in. And it is.

It seems to me that you are more upset about your own local scene there in LA, than you are concerned about the issues we have in front of us here in Flag. So, don't worry Fat Dad, folks out here are still taking whippers on gear, doing ass busting approaches, climbing multipitch routes which sometimes threaten to tumble, hiking out in the dark, handling ourselves in runout terrain, and all the rest of it.

In fact, now that I think about it I hardly ever see punters around here, and when I do they are usually from Phoenix or Cali...

JJ

One other point: Anyone who has never spent the time and or money putting up new routes have a lot less collateral to use in their arguments than those who have actually taken the time and spent the money establishing new lines.
I have a lot more respect for the ex NFL player sitting on his couch watching a game and bitching about the quarterback than I do for the chump who played one season of Pee Wee 30 years ago and thinks he knows how to quarterback better than the guy that's actually out there on the field.
Basically, if you don't like the way folks are doing new routes in your area go out an put up a bunch yourself. Or better yet, get involved with the Access Fund.
Otherwise your a just another arm chair quarterback.

Jeremy I agree completely with you that truly bad routes/areas are self policing in that they tend to just fade into obscurity.

Thank god they didn't leave an open can of Coors. Dubious bolts are nothing compared to the toxic contents found in a can of that swill. We can only hope they disposed of the remaining six pack properly.

Hard to react to this without knowing exactly what cliffs we're talking about, but if the area truly is new, I see no problem with the bolts. You found it, you set the rules. If you have accidentally rediscovered a rarely visited TR area known to but a handful of climbers, they should have tried to contact you first before chopping. Why is it most choppers do their work in chickens#*t secrecy? I'm sure they could have found out who was responsible. You could have then removed your gear or perhaps an agreement could have been reached, instead of the crap that usually follows a Coors fueled midnight bolt chopping party.

If the area has been known to many climbers as a TR area, I say leave it as such. There are many reasons for this - short cliffs, access issues, etc. Upper Sullies is a good working example of this.

Some routes are TRs because no one has bothered to bolt them and thus they remain TRs. A TR among a bunch of bolted leads would be an odd thing and if it could be a cool lead, why not rig it. I could see putting in bolts if the cliff users see it that way. The trouble is rounding up every single user to find this out. Someone is bound to be left out of the polling, and he or she may be armed with a crowbar and a Coors.

My $.02 worth.

Anyone have pictures of this cliff? How tall is it? Just curious.

J,

I find humor to the best medicine still. After that there are plenty of other options.........

No news is good news...

Burlyman- glad to hear it. And you are right, no matter which side of the line you may be on in this here discussion, there are plenty of options. I myself am hoping for another stretch of peace. There is an awful lot of rock in NAZ, if you are really out there looking for it...

JJ

well said: Jeremy, Dean, Jimbo, tradster.

One thing I haven't noticed a remark about; the area in question appears to be in a Wilderness Area: fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/maps/…
If this is in fact the case, any bolting should have been done by hand. This would also help discourage over/unneeded bolts.

Good point Mark, as far as I know the rules were followed. The Dr.

it wasn't me!
darn, i was looking forward to leading those routes, heard they were good.