In defense of projects.

Hank Caylor wrote:Jay, the 2nd ascent of "the Fiend" 13c/d in Boulder took more than I thought I had in me. The day I fired was, I swore, the LAST FRIGGIN" DAY I was EVER going to walk up that damned hill for that STUPID ASS route. On a try that I didn't think was going smoothly, I worked into the crux and blind dynoed to the finger lock and it was all over. At least 10 days of work and it has yet to see a 3rd ascent.

Wow Hank, that's awesome. I think its important to remember that we all WILL have bad days on our projects. That's just how it goes and you said it well. Sometimes those bad days become very good days.

I have found that when I least expect it, I do well on a project. When I sent Urban Surfer at Rumney, the upper half was dripping wet. I went on it "since we were already at the cliff," and before I knew it I had sent. I just needed to take a bit of pressure off--the fact that the route was in bad condition did just that.

Robert Dominguez wrote:It's a personal victory for me when I finally send something that I've been trying for weeks--something that my friends still don't understand. Speaking of which can definitely have adverse effects--

I know what you mean on this one. Some people get mad when you want to keep going back to the same route a few days in a row. I've even had people at the base ridicule me as I flail around on early attempts. I don't exacly understand why it bothers people...but it truly is against some people's "way." I guess if you love to project, you love to project, and some people will think you have no business on the route. So it goes I guess.

DisturbingThePeace wrote: I started climbing with people who were anti projecting, and encouraged climbing until you fell (on well protected climbs).

I find this really interesting. Why is "climbing until you fall" at odds with having a project? That's what a project is all about to me...a lot of falling on a well protected route.

I can't figure this out about climbing...this idea that you are one way or the other way, a project-er or an onsight-er, a trad climber or a sport climber. I see these as different aspects of climbing, each teaching you different techniques and helping you improve in different areas. They don't have to exclude each other. Do they?

Ken Cangi wrote: I was just about to post.

That means a lot to me Ken. I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. I would appreciate hearing what you have to say on the subject as well.

There is also value in doing climb numerous times just for the joy of doing a cool route where you have the moves wired. Being able to enjoy the beauty of the day, knowing where you can rest and enjoy nature, checking out climbers on adjacent routes are all reasons to do and redo climbs that you love. Sometimes you find an asthetic climb that you use as a warm-up when you go to the crag....having climbs like the Bastille so wired you can do it on a moonlight night with no pucker factor.

Kayte Decker wrote: I find this really interesting. Why is "climbing until you fall" at odds with having a project? That's what a project is all about to me...a lot of falling on a well protected route. I can't figure this out about climbing...this idea that you are one way or the other way, a project-er or an onsight-er, a trad climber or a sport climber. I see these as different aspects of climbing, each teaching you different techniques and helping you improve in different areas. They don't have to exclude each other. Do they?

I think that climbing is climbing and they all help each other. It bugs me that when I'm at the gunks with a full rack I get acknowledged by half the people there, and then when I take out the crash pad the other half seem to open up (no insult on the gunks climbing scene, just an observation.)

Scott M. Mossman wrote:There is also value in doing climb numerous times just for the joy of doing a cool route where you have the moves wired. Being able to enjoy the beauty of the day, knowing where you can rest and enjoy nature, checking out climbers on adjacent routes are all reasons to do and redo climbs that you love. Sometimes you find an asthetic climb that you use as a warm-up when you go to the crag....having climbs like the Bastille so wired you can do it on a moonlight night with no pucker factor.

I agree Scott! Climbing just kicks ass!

BrianWinslow wrote: I think that climbing is climbing and they all help each other. It bugs me that when I'm at the gunks with a full rack I get acknowledged by half the people there, and then when I take out the crash pad the other half seem to open up (no insult on the gunks climbing scene, just an observation.)

Hi Brian. Yes. That is exacly what I was thinking.

DisturbingThePeace wrote:
I started climbing with people who were anti projecting, and encouraged climbing until you fell (on well protected climbs).

Kayte Decker wrote: I find this really interesting. Why is "climbing until you fall" at odds with having a project? That's what a project is all about to me...a lot of falling on a well protected route. I can't figure this out about climbing...this idea that you are one way or the other way, a project-er or an onsight-er, a trad climber or a sport climber. I see these as different aspects of climbing, each teaching you different techniques and helping you improve in different areas. They don't have to exclude each other. Do they?

Kayte, what I was referring to was my lower quote in my first post. A problem with projecting for me is I first tried to onsight the route, got severely pumped, and deemed the route impossible for me, and gave up trying it for the season. This year I'm trying to use better strategy to prevent getting discouraged. Therefore I never worked a route that was at my highest ability, something that took 10 or 20 tries. If I couldn't climb the route with only a few falls on the first go then I gave up on it.

I agree with the rest of your post that different types of climbing don't have to exclude each other, I've always tried to become an all around climber.

Great original post about projecting.

mobley wrote:seeing people that cant onsight one grade projecting a grade or two higher seems like you dont really improve your onsight ability.

I have to respectfully but strongly disagree. How do you get stronger? By working on a move you can't do, over and over, until you build the physical strength to do it, and the technique to do it. Case in point, before this summer I could barely fist jam. Scared the crap out of me...they seemed so slippery. Then, this past summer I worked on a route that was almost all fist jams. At first that route was impossible, but on each attempt I got better at fist jams and found all kinds of cool tricks to make them more solid. Then, when I got home to New Hampshire, I felt comfortable trying to onsight a route with fist-sized crux, which I had always been too afraid to try before.

Kayte Decker wrote: Then, this past summer I worked on a route that was almost all fist jams. At first that route was impossible, but on each attempt I got better at fist jams and found all kinds of cool tricks to make them more solid.

Were you on top rope practicing? Isn't that cheating?

kidding.

DisturbingThePeace wrote:DisturbingThePeace wrote: I started climbing with people who were anti projecting, and encouraged climbing until you fell (on well protected climbs). Kayte, what I was referring to was my lower quote in my first post. A problem with projecting for me is I first tried to onsight the route, got severely pumped, and deemed the route impossible for me, and gave up trying it for the season. This year I'm trying to use better strategy to prevent getting discouraged.

I understand, and I'm sure that manner of climbing makes you strong at onsighting. I think it's a pure way to climb, to put the pedal down until you fall. It's a shame to put that on the back burner, but when it comes to working a project I can see how it's a functional strategy. I remember my first trip to the Red, I saw Katie Brown grabbing draws. I couldn't believe it. Now that I've climbed more it makes sense. She was figuring out moves. I think, when the route is really at your limit, you just do whatever the hell you can to get up the thing on the first few tries.

I was truly curious about the attitude you mentioned in the people who first took you climbing. I run into it all the time, even at Rumney which is almost all bolted. I would like to understand it. This fall, there was one guy at the base who got really frustrated with me because I couldn't do the crux and kept falling. He was saying, if you can't do the route in ten tries, you have no business on it. It did take me a few days to figure out the beta on the crux, but I was having a lot of fun up there. I don't understand why this bugs people so much. When I see somebody up high trying like hell, I think it's great. Why all these rules?

John J. Glime wrote: Were you on top rope practicing? Isn't that cheating? kidding.

Hell yes I was on top rope. Otherwise I would have learned how to DIE, not fist jam. I'm okay with cheating though. Like Mom always said, as long as nobody gets hurt or pregnant, it's OK. I did lead it in the end though. One of the coolest routes I've ever done. Cheating pays.

I remember the first time I saw Predator, an often photographed overhanging arete at Rumney. I thought to myself, and maybe even told my friends out loud, there is "no way I will every do that." At that time I was mainly an alpinist and ice climber. I had a fair amount of rock climbing experience, but I certainly hadn't projected a route before, and had never led anything harder than about easy 5.12, and trad probably no harder than 11b. Since I was a student in the area, I decided to climb at Rumney more often, as it was the closest collection of cliffs around. One day I decided to try Butt Bongo Fiesta, a 13a, as friends were toproping it. "What the hell" I thought. Within a few days of effort I had redpointed it. That spring I went on to do several other 13s and that fall I did Predator after about ten tries. The confidence boost I got from doing a few projects definitely allowed me to boost my free climbing standard quickly, and has open the doors to many memorable routes. Projecting is a great style of climbing - it often gets slandered but personally I find that projecting routes at my limit teaches me new techniques and skills that I can then apply to hard onsights. Also, on most of my redpoints of projects the climbing feels rather effortless. This is always a cool experience as most projects feel desperate if not almost impossible at first.

Bart Paull wrote:I remember the first time I saw Predator, an often photographed overhanging arete at Rumney. I thought to myself, and maybe even told my friends out loud, there is "no way I will every do that." At that time I was mainly an alpinist and ice climber. I had a fair amount of rock climbing experience, but I certainly hadn't projected a route before, and had never led anything harder than about easy 5.12, and trad probably no harder than 11b. Since I was a student in the area, I decided to climb at Rumney more often, as it was the closest collection of cliffs around. One day I decided to try Butt Bongo Fiesta, a 13a, as friends were toproping it. "What the hell" I thought. Within a few days of effort I had redpointed it. That spring I went on to do several other 13s and that fall I did Predator after about ten tries. The confidence boost I got from doing a few projects definitely allowed me to boost my free climbing standard quickly, and has open the doors to many memorable routes. Projecting is a great style of climbing - it often gets slandered but personally I find that projecting routes at my limit teaches me new techniques and skills that I can then apply to hard onsights. Also, on most of my redpoints of projects the climbing feels rather effortless. This is always a cool experience as most projects feel desperate if not almost impossible at first.

Bart,

I had a similar experience with Predator. I decided to start climbing on it after I had done two 13as. Predator was a really big step for me. It took me many, many tries. I started working it in the spring and didn't send until late October. I think forty tries is about right. Even though I was getting thoroughly bouted on it during those first few months, I took solace in the fact that I was way up in the air on an amazing and beautiful route. Falls seemed less about failure and more about taking big air because of the clips I had to skip.

Predator was my first really big project. I wasn't climbing at the grade when I first tied in on the route, but by the end of the process I certainly was. I learned so much about what is possible if you find an inspiring route, and I have taken this attitude to many more projects since then.

Kayte Decker wrote: This fall, there was one guy at the base who got really frustrated with me because I couldn't do the crux and kept falling. He was saying, if you can't do the route in ten tries, you have no business on it. It did take me a few days to figure out the beta on the crux, but I was having a lot of fun up there. I don't understand why this bugs people so much. When I see somebody up high trying like hell, I think it's great. Why all these rules?

This is purely speculation, but I think the reason some folks are bothered by extended projects, is that they don't want to see "lesser" climbers sending their hardest routes. In the example you shared, I'm guessing this dude didn't want you sending that route, because his ego was tied up in a belief that only 'elite' climbers (such as himself) should be able to send that route, and he didn't think you met his criteria for an elite climber.

Another factor feeding anti-extended-project-sentiments, is that in most cases, there is no distinction between a second go redpoint, and a redpoint that took 100's of tries over many years. I think some of the folks who do things quick feel that those who take many more tries should get less "credit". Fortunately 8a.nu has solved this problem by awarding bonus points for 'second go' redpoints :)

scott e. tarrant wrote:the "desperately seeking 8a" thread was my lurking asses favorite in a long time! it, along with this one and unlike so many others, seem to exploit, for me, what this site is supposed to be about. after many years of climbing, i feel foolish appearing the super neophyte but...i have never projected. would love to try. i am sure there are dozens of symptoms at play regarding the reasons why i have/have not (fill in the blank) and those are just plain boring. please share more regarding strategy, route choices, etc. i have climbed in and around 5.12 for many years, on-sighted 5.12b (probably a soft rating), red pointed (3rd try) 12c, but never come realistically close to red pointing a 5.13. been on several and tried each less than 3 times. frankly, they just seemed too hard for me. i had moments of being completely shut the down. yet i could, in a try or two get a 12c next door...??? i understand that i will likely never get beyond where i am at (grade wise) unless i figure this out. the point of harder grades for me is the amount of vertical acerage it opens. if i can climb 5.13's, i will be way more comfortable on some of the more desperate, run out, scary 5.12's that i really want to do...right now, i am not comfortable getting on some of my super duper all time classics. they are at my limit. my possibly flawed logic demands i either give up the hope of getting clean ascents on some of my career routes (most are very long, and not local and i won't have the luxury of setting up vertical campgrounds and projecting them...i must on-sight) or i raise my limit so that the run out on the wisdom feels like a 5.8. any other suggestions? anyone live in or around the roaring fork valley who wants to swap gri gri time for the same in kind? any suggestions that don't involve plastic / gym time?

Scott - I totally agree. I'm in a similar spot. We need to find ourselves a good project and stick with it.

By the way, both of these threads really do lay bare the desire to progress and improve. Its one part of climbing that I really love. You kinda get out of it what you put into it. Thanks to those who are showing us the path...

Monomaniac wrote: This is purely speculation, but I think the reason some folks are bothered by extended projects, is that they don't want to see "lesser" climbers sending their hardest routes. In the example you shared, I'm guessing this dude didn't want you sending that route, because his ego was tied up in a belief that only 'elite' climbers (such as himself) should be able to send that route, and he didn't think you met his criteria for an elite climber. Another factor feeding anti-extended-project-sentiments, is that in most cases, there is no distinction between a second go redpoint, and a redpoint that took 100's of tries over many years. I think some of the folks who do things quick feel that those who take many more tries should get less "credit". Fortunately 8a.nu has solved this problem by awarding bonus points for 'second go' redpoints :)

Ahh. I see. That actually fits the situation well, as this guy is super respectful to people he knows climb hard. I appreciate your insight here. This encounter really hurt my desire to climb this fall. By this guy's criteria, I didn't have any business climbing on any of my long term projects. They didn't "count" to him, because they took me so long to finish. I just disagree with him. His attitude will only create pressure to be "elite" all the time, and instead of enjoying his projects, he'll be stressing like crazy on try number 8 and 9.

Kayte Decker wrote: By this guy's criteria, I didn't have any business climbing on any of my long term projects. They didn't "count" to him, because they took me so long to finish...His attitude will only create pressure to be "elite" all the time, and instead of enjoying his projects, he'll be stressing like crazy on try number 8 and 9.

It seems to me the obvious logical flaw with this attitude, is that the number of acceptable tries is totally arbitrary. I would guess it took him ~ 9 tries, thus 10 was the magical threshold. This dude is probably constantly adjusting this number for different projects depending on how long each project takes. What he really means is, "If it takes you longer than it took me, you don't belong on the route" I think this is the epitome of elitism in sport climbing.

Monomaniac wrote: I think this is the epitome of elitism in sport climbing.

It IS elitist, and the funny thing is this guy isn't very strong in the great big climbing universe, or even at his home crag. I've met so many climbers who can do the hardest routes who are genuinely psyched for others. I'll never forget, one time that Vasya (who did the FA of JawsII-probably 5.15-in Rumney this fall) talked to me for a good twenty minutes about the crux of my project, and how he found it hard when he did the route. He talked about staying positive on a route that's hard for you, as if he was talking to a peer, not a lesser climber. Here's one of the strongest guys I've ever met taking time to help me out, vs. this other guy, who couldn't pull one move of Vasia's project, acting really elitest.

I think downgrading a long-stading route is the epitome of elitism...or maybe telling a climber to lower off a route, because he/she can't get past the crux, and you're waiting to warm up.