Fear of ...

I'd argue that there are two kinds of fear in climbing.

Fear of failure: getting 10 feet beyond the shitty old fixed knifeblade and getting gripped.

Fear of success: getting beyond the crux and blowing it in easier territory.

Question 1: Which do you find yourself in more often?

Question 2: How does your fear manifest itself in your non-climbing life?

Fear of Success.
An example: A few years ago I did my hardest sport climb... Ok, it was like 10 years ago. I had the thing as wired as could be and was falliing in a number of place, but usually right before the end. I redpointed it... then redpointed it agin 10 minutes later.
I rarely sport climb these days and fins myself much happier taking on the fear of failure rather than the fear of success (ie, I climb on bad rock, usually with a limited number of bolts.

Most of my climbing partners think I'm a relatively better climber when gear is bad or sparse.

How does it mainifest itself in daily life? I'm a better driver on bad roads. I'm not the guy you want taking the last shot in the game with 2 seconds left... I probably am the guy you want taking the shot at the knife-wilding terrorist running at us.

Deep thoughts for 2pm
BTW Mike, is your photograph of the SC girl who gave the great answer last year in the Miss USA Competition? She sounded a bit like Dubya!

don't know if I've ever experienced fear of success while climbing (you have to be a successful climber for that). Fear of failure only when I'm soling, or the gear is so crappy I might as well be.

Funny thought... In climbing I don't have a fear of commitment, but that's a fear in my non climbing life;)

It seems to me that there are many facets to "fear of failure", the most obvious one to me being whether there is a concern about safety or not. I agree with Sam and have had similar experiences back when I lived in Austin and sport climbed a lot. But in that arena for me personally, the failure fear is simply of not redpointing/onsighting/climbing the route. That seems very different from Mike's initial example where I pictured actual danger involved, then to me, since I much prefer that sort of climbing these days, its not "failure" per se that instills the fear, its concern of serious injury or death. Now of course those outcomes would be "failures" but to me the underlying emotions/drive/concerns/fears are very different.

Fear is a good thing in general, especially in those circumstances, its keeps you sharp and "real". Of course too much fear can be destructive and inhibiting, but too little can be more dangerous, I think this was discussed in a number of other similar threads recently. In serious committed dangerous climbing and in other endeavors, a good grip and familiarity on the "fear factor" is very healthy indeed and keeps you from overextending. Yet at the same time its wonderful to experience it, to feel the fear, to know you have the capabilities in the given situation and then to work through it and succeed at whatever it is, thats the satori aspect of it I supose. I always laugh at the whole "No Fear" brand crapola, and say its much better to "Know Fear" . . . somewhere in there is a really cool t-shirt/poster/quote juxtaposing those sentiments in a climbing context.

Mike McHugh wrote:I'd argue that there are two kinds of fear in climbing. Fear of failure: getting 10 feet beyond the shitty old fixed knifeblade and getting gripped. Fear of success: getting beyond the crux and blowing it in easier territory.

Huh???!!! The fear I know is a fear of heights! On Crimson Chrysalis I swore to god that if I made it down alive I would quit climbing forever. That was 11 years ago...

I don't care about failure or success (that will work itself out), I care about the long death fall, and I try to keep that visualization out of my head at belays. While I am climbing, I am fine, but when I have time to let my mind wander, not good. Fortunately experience and drugs now keep my terror in check.

i guess in the framework offered, success. it is always easier for me to hop on an unknown 5.12 (or harder) than on a 5.11 (or easier). if i fall on a 5.12, i can get my head around the fact that for me that is a hard on-sight. if i fall on a 5.10 or 5.11 i feel really ashamed. i know that sounds really pathetic but facts are stubborn things and i can get pretty down if i fall (and i do more often than i like) on something that is supposed to be well within my abilities.

like most of us, i usually don't fall on hard AND dangerous routes. funny how removing options increases strength/focus/technique/endurance/success...

pretty easy to extrapolate how this behavior manifests itself in my daily life...really great at the random bottle of wine and a rose for my wife but SUCK at Valentines...oh shit!...i'll be right back!

Hmmm. I'm the reverse. I screw it up when I do care- jitters I guess. I'm the guy who flashes the 12 when he doesn't know what hes on, but gets gripped on the 11 because he's expecting a fight.
That's why I don't run it out near my limit. Once I FEAR that I am not safe, I AM not safe.

I almost never blow it after a crux unless I'm just that pumped, because I relax and climb well.

For me it breaks down into rational and irrational fear. Its the rational fear that's healthy (crappy gear, long runout, whatever). It keeps us alive and should most times be listened to. But the irrational fear is sometimes more inhibiting. Often i find myself with elvis leg while i have great gear in my face, well within my abilities, and no apparent danger anywhere yet i still feel enveloped by fear. It's the irrational that I find more difficult to overcome.

scott e. tarrant wrote:i guess in the framework offered, success. it is always easier for me to hop on an unknown 5.12 (or harder) than on a 5.11 (or easier). if i fall on a 5.12, i can get my head around the fact that for me that is a hard on-sight. if i fall on a 5.10 or 5.11 i feel really ashamed. i know that sounds really pathetic but facts are stubborn things and i can get pretty down if i fall (and i do more often than i like) on something that is supposed to be well within my abilities.

I suffer from the same symptoms. I recall mentioning something about this in an earlier training thread in which I talked about experiencing a persistent sense of peer pressure when climbing in the gym. The better I got, the worse the pressure to perform felt to me. Maybe some of it came from outside stimulation, although I believe that most of it manifested as a result of my own formidable performance expectations.

"formidable performance expectations"

exactly. i feel this way if i am bouldering alone! i feel this way with my longest time partner and with my brother (my looongest time partner). i know for fact that i stand naked and unjudged by them. i think this has, more than most anything else, kept me in a pretty pedestrian climbing arena. my goal (set late last year) for 2008 is just that. climb everything, enjoy them all, accept that i may fall repeatedly on every route i get on but learn to enjoy the ride no matter the performance expectation.

i have had times (sometimes months long) where i had FEAR. sometimes rational, more often irrational, and those times are just plain weird and pathetic to have to witness (from inside of myself and i can imagine my partners chagrin) . generally, climbing does not scare me. not because of a toughness or boldness...i am simply an old man, have been doing it forever and, truth be told, i generally do routes i have a pretty high percentage chance on (i mean of survival). i hope i am not preparing a quote in my own darwin award but i have always "known" that i would never get seriously hurt climbing...most of my career "to do's" are R rated routes but not X. i can get my head around big lobs (65' is longest to date), have soloed some amazing routes waaaay (easy 5.10 to date) below my limit, but have yet to meet the route worth feeling the touch on. without prior expectation, i have been in situations where that reality existed but i tend to not invite that into my day.

blah blah blah.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote: Deep thoughts for 2pm BTW Mike, is your photograph of the SC girl who gave the great answer last year in the Miss USA Competition? She sounded a bit like Dubya!

Not to distract this thread too much, but this girl is now a fellow student of mine here at the great Applachian State University. What a joke!

It is interesting how our Ego's can manifest all these different emotional states in it's drive to protect us from pain. For me generally fear is an indication that I am not fully "In the Moment", I used to fight my fear and put myself down for having it, but it only seemed to get worse. Nowdays I treat my fear like a small child, and try to respect it and listen to it as for me this is the only way to master it. Sometimes when the fear is justified I have to tune it out by turning up the volume on the here and now. Other times I have to walk away, and respect that this is just not the day.

I would say that I fear failure over success, mostly when I question my abilities and how I will stack up to the challenge. I tend to be conservative in my risk taking, and will often hold off on climbing certain routes until I am very sure of my ability to succeed in an onsight.

Outside of climbing I would say my fear keeps me from taking on some risks, and I will often have to work something out in my mind for a long time before I actually go for it. It took me 5 years to finally walk away from corporate america, but it was the best thing I have ever done.

interesting topic and responses.

In my case if I feel good mentally I have no problems, but the opposite is true when I am tired or distracted. A couple deep breaths and self talk help me a lot as well. It is always nice to hear me tell me how great I am!

Thanks for reminding me of this thread. I can't believe that I am the only one that is afraid of heights. What that means is that I must be the baddest ass of all of you. Imagine doing what you do WHILE being afraid of heights. Yup, I'm one bad dude... or something.

Mike McHugh wrote:How does your fear manifest itself in your non-climbing life?

A very suspicious question to ask on Feb. 14.

I have fear of falling apart--my torn labrums in both shoulders mean my shoulder could dislocate while climbing. It did once on a cruxy move on easy territory (Royal Arches) but I had really ran it out and thus took a nasty fall. That is what I most fear.

Fortunately, I had shoulder surgery last month so I'll be able to climb a bit harder. Maybe no more 5.12s in my life but who knows?