Gear Review - Black Diamond ATC Guide

I just bought the ATC Guide this summer and used it for the first time while guiding with thicker ropes and was surprised at how poorly it fed. We got rained out and went into the gym and the fat, stiff gym cords barely worked there was so much friction. It works great with newer 10.5 or thinner ropes, though. But for 11mm or older 10.5 that have become thicker with use I wouldn't recommend using the ATC Guide.

Hi vegastradguy,

vegastradguy wrote:... as to your friction problem, thats pretty weird, considering the Guide has 30% less friction than the XP.!

It's really weird - my "sticking" experience with the ATC Guide and not with the ATC-XP. I need to take measurements, because if the slots are freer as you note, then the only explanation I can come up with is the weight of the device.

It dawns on me that I recently shifted to attaching belay 'biner to my belay loop. Until a couple of months ago, I ran it through my harness tie in points. After all of these years, I've changed.

I'd be interested to hear if others who report this sticking problem were also running their locker through their tie-in point instead of their belay loop. This might contribute to the weight of the ATC Guide dropping down and jamming as I've experienced.

Yes, the new ropes are plenty strong in their svelte, new dimensions. Those who are uncomfortable with the idea of a skinny rope need only look at the weight per meter to gain more assurance.

The obvious problem with dictating the thickness of a rope by your belay device of course lies in predicting what your partner owns.

Cheers,
Thom

I have three devices that I use as the situation requires:

• A Trango B-52: for fatter ropes, when I want less friction for rappelling or giving quick clip slack to a leader.
• A Black Diamond ATC-Guide: for skinnier ropes, when I want more friction for rappelling. Also for bringing up two seconds simultaneously in auto-block mode.
• A Trango Cinch: for belaying sport leads, and bringing up a second while belaying directly off the anchor. Very easy to lower the second even if they are hanging on the rope.

Choose the right tool for the job...

Hi Ron, all ...

Ron Olsen wrote:Choose the right tool for the job...

To the man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail.

I just compared my 2007 ATC Guide with last year's (I think) ATC-XP. Both the width of the slots as well as the angle of the "V" grooves (and shape of the teeth) are different.

I don't know if this is a difference in model years or in the models themselves, but you can certainly verify this at your climbing shop.

A cursory measurement shows the width of the "slots" to be .545" for the Guide and .560 for the XP.



Well, that's one mystery solved.

Cheers,
Thom

This years BD guide has a sticky feed compared to the one that came out last year. My guess... the new ones are made in China. :-)

Galibier_Numero_Un wrote:Hi Ron, all ... To the man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail. I just compared my 2007 ATC Guide with last year's (I think) ATC-XP. Both the width of the slots as well as the angle of the "V" grooves (and shape of the teeth) are different. I don't know if this is a difference in model years or in the models themselves, but you can certainly verify this at your climbing shop. A cursory measurement shows the width of the "slots" to be .545" for the Guide and .560 for the XP. Well, that's one mystery solved. Cheers, Thom

Rick M wrote:This years BD guide has a sticky feed compared to the one that came out last year. My guess... the new ones are made in China. :-)

Out of curiosity, while at Neptune's on Saturday, I asked to compare the current XP vs. the Guide.

The XP slots continue to be wide, with the Guide being narrow as we have both observed.

I guess only the Guide is made in China :^)

Cheers,
Thom

Galibier_Numero_Un wrote: Out of curiosity, while at Neptune's on Saturday, I asked to compare the current XP vs. the Guide. The XP slots continue to be wide, with the Guide being narrow as we have both observed. I guess only the Guide is made in China :^) Cheers, Thom

That's cool, but I was comparing two different BD guides(no XPs). One was purchased in 2006 and the other last month. The finish is different between them and the newer model does not feed rope near as well.

sorry to bring up such an old thread, but i've only recently got out of the dark ages and had some other questions i thought someone might be able to help me with:

#1
was ascending up a multi a couple of months ago, and an earlier party was coming down on us. they got their ropes stuck, and one of them used their guide as an ascender to get up (using both ropes together as a fixed line). so i've done my share of jugging with prussics, a few different types of full sized ascenders, rope men, and whatever it is called when you prussic around a big beaner, but was wondering if someone had a visual of how to rig the guide as an ascender.

#2
also, thought someone might be able to help solve a debate we were having earlier that day: is it safe to belay two different people up two different ropes (top rope) simultainiously using a standard ATC? (obviously keeping hands on the brake?)...while i'm at it, what about if we were trying to move, and the first up took off to lead the next pitch, while the latter was still coming up. probably would be a big rope mess, but what about that?

thanks in advance - S

Steve, #1 is a rig with the autoblock off the belay loop. Piton Pete gives an illustration but using the gri-gri. Using the guide/reverso/similar device is basically the same, but the gri-gri is far more manageable & you would need to manage a knot so you can treat a two strand standard rap as a one strand fixed to allow pull when you get to a safe anchor in a lower position.

#2 - I've actually done 2 with only munters (why? because I left my device at the anchor below). This takes practice, you can't ever take your hands off of both strands; this is something you really need to be solid with when it comes to belay technique -- it's slip, slap, slide times two and very fast. If a second falls, you really have no choice but to lock off strands -- a redirect would be helpful & recommended, if you can; even better are direct-anchor munters on separate biners.

Buddy rescue at this stage is risky to consider belay escape. So going with a basic ATC to belay two seconding climbers can turn into more than epic in a split second if your skills are not dialed in. But is it possible? Sure, you just don't have the auto-blocking rig. If the terrain is well within ability to simul-climb, using this technique works when climbing as a party of three.

Sending the leader up & belaying a seconding climber -- again, if you all could simul-climb anyway; it is possible -- but the trouble is if the seconding climber hangs, you could pull your leader off or short-rope them as you lock-off. So the risk is higher in this situation.

I would say, if the weather is moving in and you 3 had to get out of terrain, this rigging is possible to consider to try and get someone up to a safer anchor/terrain situation; but I wouldn't consider it as much an option if a fall due were likely due to terrain difficulty. You could also just have the leader short fix & keep the belay on the seconding climber independent until they reach to your anchor position.

If you didn't need to move a leader up as quickly as possible/simul-climbing wasn't likely either; what you could do instead is butterfly mid-line and use one rope and belay both seconding climbers. Use your second strand as a free tag-line if you needed to get down to them.

I posted a response to this thread about how my new atc guide was very difficult to feed the rope through. I was especially bummed when belaying a leader. Well, now that the device is quite worn, it feeds much better. Maybe the holes are bigger or the coating has worn off. Anyway, now I really enjoy the device. When its time to get a new one I will break it out when i need to do exstensive rapelling....el cap?.

i love my guide and it's fantastic for bringing up seconds and the multi friction modes. one complaint, sort of, i was taught that if you ratchet the biner clipped through the rope that it will lower your second inch by inch in case they need only a little slack to get back to a rest. I did notice after about three weeks worth of climbing (8 days total) the biner had worn a sharp edge on the inside bottom edge of the device. something to keep your eye out for. from now on i'll just use some acc cord through the hole for short lowers

is it possible to use the auto-locking function outside of guide mode? I plan on getting one soon because i typically climb with people heavier than me and i have used a both a gri gri and a cinch and both help a lot with falls when the climber weighs 1.75x as much as the belayer. the problem is, i don't do much multi pitch climbing so i would rarely use the guide mode. i would consider getting either a gri gri/ cinch but i don't feel that i can give a safe lead belay with them... i know it is possible i just don't feel like my partner is safe when i try to do so

Eli asked: is it possible to use the auto-locking function outside of guide mode?

As far as I know no. If you can its totally new to me. The high friction mode is as close as you'll get for braking assistance when belaying a leader from the ATC outside of guide/auto-locking mode.

If youre able to throw together an anchor with an upward directional (or whatever way the anticipated fall is likely to come from) and connect to it to help out.

Eli, consider an assisted-braking device. The Mammut Smart & Alpine Smart, and Edelrid MegaJul are three such devices. They behave a lot like the ATC, but amplify your braking force. The main difference is how you lower/pay slack, which takes a little getting used to, but may be worthwhile for you! They are a nice compromise between the more intuitive ATC and the locking GriGri.

I would advise against trying to use the ATC Guide in guide mode when you are *below* your climber. From what I can tell, the system depends on gravity to keep everything in order, and it is nigh-impossible to pay out slack.

Alpine Up is another good assisted locking device.

Thanks for the feedback guys. After much research it appears the Mammut Smart is as close as i am going to get to what i am looking for.

eli poss wrote:Thanks for the feedback guys. After much research it appears the Mammut Smart is as close as i am going to get to what i am looking for.

I have owned and used the Mammut Smart Alpine. The Alpine Up is a superior device. Easier to pay out rope without locking up. Smoother in guide mode. Smoother rappels. Skinny twin ropes don't migrate under the divider and hang up.

youtube.com/watch?v=EogWFgH…

Kai Larson wrote: I have owned and used the Mammut Smart Alpine. The Alpine Up is a superior device.

AT four times the price of the Mammut Smart, you'd hope so!