Bolting at Castle Rock

Maybe it's just me, but I always felt that Castle Rock was held to a
different standard than some of the other areas in Boulder Canyon. It makes me sad.

James is refering to the line installed just to the left of Curving Crack on the west side of Castle Rock. My friend and I rolled in to get some good climbing in the shade this morning and stood there staring at the line. Pretty much all we could say is wtf. Why? The thing is completely topropeable which means that you can climb it anytime that you like. It is not like it is not climbable without the bolts. If leading it means that much to you then man-up and figure out a way. Having the ability to work with what is there is the reason people climb at the crag in the first place. It is sad.

BigRob wrote: If leading it means that much to you then man-up and figure out a way.

well, the first bolt seems a little silly, but the other 3 bolts are ok. they (top 3 bolts) don't mess up the other lines. and the route it pretty fun.

as far as "man-up" for the lead, the fa guy (who i won't say) is way more than strong enough for no bolts. this person has climbed plenty of 11x routes.

anyway, now we have lots to discuss!

the fa person can speak for themselves though...

Where I am from those bolts would be chopped. Im not going to do it but if they are upsetting people it's an option to consider.

Castle Rock should be held as sacred. Much climbing history graces the routes there: Robbins, Kor, Ament, et al. I think it would be a loss to the climbing community if CR is developed into another one of 'those' crags. If there is truly a need for more bolted sport climbing in Boulder Canyon, can not a different crag be found? The slippery slope of bolting is very steep, and very slick, in BC. Lots of motivated people with drills, and turning a blind eye to minor encroachment of sacred ground leads to further activity, and perhaps to acceptance.

Whoever restores the affected line would probably have the support of a lot of people. I hope the community can respect a bit of BC history, even if it's just one little roadside crag in the entire canyon.

What??
Bolt wars and chopping in boulder????

No Waaaaaay...

It is unfortunate to see bolting at Castle Rock that resembles the Sport Park. I have been climbing there for over forty years and I would not like to see every possible top rope line bolted so it could be led. I climbed the new bolt line the other day and found myself trying to decide what holds might be OK to use and which were off limits. That is a clear sign of inappropriate squeezing of a route in where it is not needed. These bolts should be removed.

And besides that, he has a sycophant minion to declare his superiority too.

ok john, settle down... the guy is not my friend, i don't even know him. i do know of him, being a more famous climber. but who knows, i was just told by a friend, while climbing at castle rock. he might not have the right person, so i can't really speak up.
so john, maybe you can ask around, get some answers, and post them. i can then verify to conferm id.
oh, and it does not make something ok just because a climber badass. i should have known how people might freakout at my openended post.

I'll rescind the minion comment. But you did sound like one. Sorry.

Not sure I get the "different standard" bit. There is a bolted line left of this one and if you look at the practice roof and immediately right of it there are several bolted cracks. The East Face slabs now sport several bolted lines that start from the water and in addition, most of the trad routes have double bolt chain anchors at the belays. You can debate about this 'new' route all you want but if you decide to take out the bolts on that route then what do you do about the rest of the bolts on this 'sacred' cliff. Seems like there are a lot of bolts that need to be removed, most of which won't be because they are too convenient.

I too agree with MM. I was there when the route in question was bolted. This person is a recognizable person in the climbing community and I believe he was doing this in the spirit of leading a route, not TR.

Boy, I wouldn't want to be your friend. Keeping Tabs, Score keeper.
You missed the point.....Castle Rock isn't sacred b/c it has bolts all over it! I suppose, if YOU truly examined the routes that are currently on this crag you would find the same. And I suppose you would then, consider this crag "bastardized", by your standards. What are your standards. Oh great judger of what is sacred and sanct. So think carefully, my friend, before you classify the sacred-ness of a crag and "defend" it. Sometimes it's progress, looking at things a different way. So get out of your box and think. What is a newly bolted route a sign of?

Interesting to note: you, J, don't have much of a profile on Mo-pro.

Perhaps we should ask miss manners about bolting ettequete?

Chris-

Perhaps the somewhat anonymous Jed is a little too heavy on the sarcasm, but there is a certain etiquette, not to mention responsibility, that goes along with bolting. It is simply a matter of respect for the climbing community to not bolt whatever or wherever one pleases on a crag that has a long history and tradition of trad climbing. Sure, there are bolts at CR. There are bolts on almost every climbable crag in Boulder County. In and of itself, that doesn't necessarily give one the right to add more. Places like CR are different than many of the more or less recently developed crags which tend to be slag heaps, off the beaten path, and of little interest to anyone. Until someone with skill and vision comes along making it fun for all us lazy butts. CR should be handled like Eldo which has many bolts and fixed pins on classic lines, many of which are pretty sketchy, but there is always healthy debate among the community before a single one is even replaced, much less putting in a new one. I don't think many people care too much about new bolt lines being put up at many places in Boulder Canyon, as long as it's done carefully with as little contrivance as possible. I like a good bolted route as much as anyone else, but the crags belong to all of us and it's important to garner input from the community before bolting such a well-traveled and historically important crag as CR. There's still plenty of vertical real estate left in Boulder Canyon and beyond for "thinking out of your box" .

BTW, what exactly is "a newly bolted route a sign of"? And I certainly wouldn't consider bolting a 5.11 TR "progress" or thinking "out of your box" at a crag that has numerous hard .11 and a few .12 routes, all of which can be lead with gear and many of which are pretty dang spicy.

This is my first ever post on this site. I think that people are overreacting. I've climbed at CR a lot and climbed most of the trad routes (or tried to). We also climbed the new bolted line a few weeks ago. I thought it was fun. Of all of the times I've been to CR I've never seen anybody TR this line. It doesn't seem like a very natural TR line to me. Anyway, I thought the line was a lot different than most of the routes I've ever tried to climb. It was hard for me because I don't have much practice on Aretes. Since it's a lot different than all of the other lines at CR or elsewhere in its near vicinity I think it's actually a fine and worthy route.

I have to agree with Eliann. Its not a bad route and you would have to try to get on either curving crack or comeback crack from the bolt line. Its not a straightfoward TR and when I climbed a few weeks ago there was all sorts of loose stuff coming off, so I can't imagine it has seen many TRs.

Thank You Richard,
I agree, you have to take great consideration when bolting anywhere. Especially BC, I have read stories from Pat Ament and read quite a bit and climb the canyon quite a bit.

So the question begs.... Should Boulder Canyon be the next locale to have a fixed hardware review committee?

i am glad to see this topic is turning into a discussion, instead of a bashing on folks (like me b/c i didn't name the person...)

for all you people know, maybe td did consult the climbing community before doing this. maybe all the old long term bc climbers said yeah, that seems like a good route (like some of us also think.)

as far as a review board, that seems unnecessary at the present moment. it is not like things are out of control in the canyon!

anyway, james, bigrob, paz, matt, jim, jed, john.... rejoin the discussion, and tell us your thoughts, and why, instead of just bitching without any formidable posts.

Ok, you talked me into it. Normally I don't report routes on the web because I'd rather go climbing with my spare time and I like the mystery routes between guidebook printings, but someone told me the climb that I bolted next to Curving Crack was catching heat online. I TR'd it one day and found it to be really fun. It was all flaky so it seemed like it was not TR'd often if at all. Then I thought about putting in just one bolt or headpointing but decided it would be more fun if it was a good bolt route rather than another runout botch job like Atlas Shrugged to the right that gets TR'd constantly but almost never led.
Munger is right, if anyone is into chopping bolts at Caslte Rock, get rid of the bolted cracks first. Athletes Feat was first done free without bolts - Robbins did it off a pin pounded into the flake below - and the aid roof (Deadline) bolts, placed next to bomber cams, even get in the way of the free climbing moves. There are a couple of 5.13+ bolted cracks there. Tongo's start was essentially replaced by the bolts on After Forever and is now considered the normal Tongo - but the original start to the left is scarier. The roof climb a few routes left of Curving Crack is a one move wonder that could go a bit dicy on natural gear. I did consider the standard of Castle Rock and the new line seemed to be well within it, and different than anything else there, so I bolted it. Even in Eldo the FHRC let Huck Off get bolted and now some people actually clip one of those bolts before doing the crux of the Wisdom instead of placing the cams. The first pitch of the Naked Edge has bolt routes on either side of it that are as close as the new route by Curving Crack.

Before I bolted the climb in question I judged the worth of the line based on not interfering with the lines next to it and none of the bolts are useable from the other climbs. For the record keepers out there, I also did the roof line a few feet right of the Pass/Fail option and placed a two bolt anchor on top, and did a direct start to Never a Dull Moment with one bolt. I also replaced the last bolt on Alien Sex Toy ( was a 1/4 inch button head spinner) but someone chopped the new bolt - I guess the replacement bolt was too shiny for the crucible of Castle Rock or it interferred with the nice grafitti below it - was it anyone on this thread by chance?

If we should make CR up to the standard the critics suggest in this thread, I'm game, but we should step up to the plate and pull all those bolts, Athletes Feat, Tongo, Deadline, Ground Zero, the anchors on Black Crack, Athelte's Feat, Country Club, the South Face, Curving Crack, Skunk Crack, and sandblast the grafitti and the firepit while we're at it.

As far as a hardware review comittee for Boulder Canyon? It reminds me of Boulder "Open Space" that is actually "closed space", flashy pedestrian crosswalks that cause more accidents than before, huge valleys in the Indian Peaks closed for Boulder City mystery projects, and new parking meters that leave bits of paper spread all over the oh-so-environmentally conscious city. Please leave Boulder Canyon a crucible of anarchy in this over-managed county. If it weren't for climber's bickering we'd have the best ice climbing park in the US on Vampire Rock and Black Widow, and the rock climbs would still be good. We climbers are our worst enemy and are always causing our own demise. Any guess as to how long we'll be able to boulder in Chaos Canyon if people keep leaving their pads up there? Consider this: the FHRC in Eldo is assurance that no more bold climbs with bolts will be done there because they only give permission to "safe" bolted climbs. Boulder Canyon is a place we can still get as wacky as we want in any direction we want - bold and bolted. There are new climbs approved by the FHRC in Eldo that have MORE bolts than they would if they were done without approval! Paris Girl, the most controversial climb in eldo would have MORE bolts if it had been done WITH approval by the FHRC, as would the Wisdom, Pansee Savage, Book of Numbers, the climbs around Blackwalk, the Doub-Griffith, a number of the roof routes, and others. The FHRC is a good thing in Eldo for a variety of reasons, but unfortunately it also homogonizes new routes. Part of what makes Eldo, and Boulder County for that matter, great is that so much was done before it was managed to the smallest copperhead. Ever think about that?

Well said TD. Very compelling arguments.