Helmet or no Helmet

Helmets make you look weak and add more weight, which equals less sending. If the government tells me I have to wear a helmet I will write a letter to Trump. Tell him my liberty is being threatened and he will take care of me.

will ar, you're right that it isn't black and white, and there are lines that need drawing, and no one gets to draw them for anyone else. I don't know about your final claim, though. Being angry at the victim is a natural stage a grief, and I think that's worse when you think the person you lost would still be with you if they had just done some simple, stupid thing like wearing a helmet or staying roped up for that final scramble to the top. The way my dad harangues me about staying roped up every time I see him before a big alpine trip tells me that those details stick with the survivors.

But yeah, a survivor is mostly just sad because the person is gone, and the main anger is going to be directed at the larger narcissism (we're calling spades spades in the age of Trump, right?) of engaging in such a fundamentally dangerous activity at all. A lot of those left behind just stop climbing, and some of them end up having a really hard time with anyone they know continuing to climb. In my family those effects are into their third generation now.

And I fully admit that I have a tendency to argue very stridently about safety issues. I think the climbing community overall is negligent if not delusional about risk mitigation, and we're courting disaster in the low standards we accept. Just go watch the belaying at climbing gyms, ask a few people using plaquettes to belay from above whether they know how to release them safely, or start paying attention to how beginners clean sport routes, and you may see what I mean. The norm for learning to climb isn't a careful progression, it's jumping into the deep end and hoping for the best.

I'm still trying to figure out why that guy was wearing a PAS thong on top rope at my gym last night.

Fascinating...I have to wear a helmet because you do ????

people soloing should get med benefits ?

Who are you? Trump ?

john strand wrote:Fascinating...I have to wear a helmet because you do ???? people soloing should get med benefits? Who are you? Trump ?

Should life insurance pay out for people who commit suicide the week after buying a new policy? Should inactive smokers receive the same health insurance premiums as marathoners? Free soloing is a pretty obvious cause for a hike in a person's premiums or outright rejection of coverage.

Owen Witesman wrote: Should life insurance pay out for people who commit suicide the week after buying a new policy?

I'm pretty sure most the life insurance policies I've had have a clause about suicide in them. Either way there is a difference between making a conscious decision to take an action that will definitely end your life vs activities that have an increased level of risk.

Owen Witesman wrote:Free soloing is a pretty obvious cause for a hike in a person's premiums or outright rejection of coverage.

Usually there is no outright rejection of coverage (the exception being pre-existing health conditions for certain types of insurance polices), but instead the policy won't pay out if your death/injury meets certain conditions. I believe if I die/get injured parachuting (excluding an aircraft emergency) or in a war zone as a direct result of conflict my life insurance and disability policies don't pay out.

You seem to have the view that free soloing is extremely dangerous, but the rest of climbing is safe (relatively speaking). I've covered a lot of low 5th class without a rope. I was always climbing well within in my limits and felt that while the consequences of a fall would be catastrophic, there was almost no chance of falling. I've been in far scarier and riskier circumstances on a rope while climbing rock and ice. I've never climbed with you and don't know if you think this way, but many people have a false sense of security with a rope and helmet. You say that no one can draw the line for anyone else and then insist that you should draw it for everyone at free soloing.

Back to the OP's subject- I wear a helmet 99% of the time while climbing and usually while belaying. Im pretty sure the last time I was without a helmet was when I did the climb in my profile pic and I forgot it on the ground. Unless I'm ice climbing or on a chossy multipitch I'd say wearing a helmet is a personal choice. At the end of the day we're all out climbing (an inherently risky activity) for ourselves and to say one risk is ok while others aren't is a little silly.

Owen Witesman wrote:Go to Maple Canyon in Utah and look at all the cobbles lying around and then look at how few climbers have helmets on, and you'll see that failure to use a helmet is not fundamentally a matter of rational decisions being made based on situational factors. The whole climbing area is predicated on rocks falling out of their matrix and people still don't wear helmets. Clearly fashion, tradition, and habit are strong drivers that we should assume will tend to cloud our judgement. of course that's making some assumptions about the preservation of life and limb being more important than whatever the supposed downsides of wearing a helmet might be. Some people may genuinely value looking cool or not getting their hair messed up more than they value reducing their chance of paralysis.

typically the smart belayers stand to the side and not under the climbers in Maple, just sayin'

Owen Witesman wrote:People who free solo fifth class terrain should be ineligible for any medical coverage they can't pay for themselves out of pocket. Neither the state, hospitals, or other insured individuals should have to contribute to the costs of their intentional negligence. The problem is, medical ethics demand treatment regardless of culpability, so the larger society ends up stuck with the bill in the end.

What about people who inhale fast food by the pallet and never exercise? The overall burden of medical costs to the tax payers for free soloing injuries is an immeasurably-small fraction of a cent compared to that. I'd argue that living an obese lifestyle, as 50,000,000+ Americans do, is no less negligent, medically speaking, than free soloing. At least with free soloing the chance of requiring a doctor is somewhat low. Either you're walking away without injury or you're dead in most cases. The chance of you requiring medical treatment at some point because you live an unhealthy lifestyle is almost 100%.

Bryan Ferguson wrote: Can you provide data that supports your point?

Has to do with technology advancement. Those big beefy ars from the 50s and 60s are way less safe than our smaller sleeker cars. Materials change, saftlety standards go up and deaths go down per hora driven.

Helmets save lives. If you don't want one then fine, but don't act like there isn't a risk. Here's a fun article to read about helmets.

cruxcrush.com/2014/05/20/th…

ViperScale wrote: New climbers aren't the problem it is when you get someone who thinks they know alot more than they do is the danger. Someone who thinks they know how to build a safe anchor but their best anchor a 40 pound kid would pull out on a fall sort thing.

Oh yea ... good point.

by situational what i refer to is folks who bring a lid to the cliff and then take the thing on and off all day or just leave it strapped to their pack. If your gonna carry it arround you might as well carry it on your head. Takeing in on and off all day long is 1. a pain in the arse. 2. Fcking stupid like you could actually predict when the accident is going to happen. If that was actually the case then you would not need the effin helmet in the first place. So yes either man up and say I don't wear those sissy looking pieces of crap or admit you are an uncool wimp who wears a lid. that in between shit is rediculess.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:by situational what i refer to is folks who bring a lid to the cliff and then take the thing on and off all day or just leave it strapped to their pack. If your gonna carry it arround you might as well carry it on your head. Takeing in on and off all day long is 1. a pain in the arse. 2. Fcking stupid like you could actually predict when the accident is going to happen. If that was actually the case then you would not need the effin helmet in the first place. So yes either man up and say I don't wear those sissy looking pieces of crap or admit you are an uncool wimp who wears a lid. that in between shit is rediculess.

Bitch I stopped worrying about looking cool when I was 14 years old. If "looking cool" is a priority in your life then you obviously haven't graduated highschool.

Here's a thought from Nick's morning routine. "Huh, I wonder if complete strangers outside will think my shoes are cool. I hope so, I need validation for my own crippling insecurities."

trailridge wrote:Helmets ... add more weight, which equals less sending.

"PETZL METEOR III+ $99.95 a favorite among testers. After climbing multiple pitches in Teton Canyon, one tester said he forgot he was even wearing it. Weighing in at 8.3 ounces, the Meteor III+ is the second-lightest..."

Helmet 8.3 ounces.
Spandex pants 6.76 dry.
Jeans 24.75 ounces dry.
Brain in, 112 ounces wet.



My jeans are heavy, but I want to wear them because when I get over the roof I want to do a knee lock and the silky spandex will just slide off. Maybe I should just try and do it without pants?, I did not realize how heavy they were. And if I go a step further and leave off the spandex as well THEN I can wear the helmet with no additional intended weight. I could then just put some tape on my knee.

.

really interesting read

actually scientists have discovered, through extensive research, if you put something on your head, to protect your head, you have a 99.9% increased chance of head protection, than if you had not put something on your head, not protecting your head

I especially like the cheesy plastic gloves from the $5.00 bin at the ski shack..

I would say the most important factor is how you look. I like to look like someone who is not about to suffer from traumatic brain injury.

If it does not convince him then "Bitch" is not a good idea. I don't think it works, unless perhaps you are there in person and he can respond. Then you can dialogue. The internet is not the same as talking to someone in person. After you write a post just cut back on the drama then hit the send button.

s.price wrote: Don't be coming on here and starting with Bitch to call someone out because you do not see things the same. No reason to flaunt your ignorance. Is that how you always start a conversation?

Does it matter? He's clearly insecure about himself. Is my use of a bad word hurt offend you? Are your virgin ears bothered by my course sailors tongue? I apologise if so. I'll try to culture myself some, refine my language.

You rapscallion, how rueful your behavior! How meager your own self worth is! To hold, on a pedestal, a strangers admiration over your own safety! What manchild would hold that up as something to strive to? What challenges held you down as a child that now, yes now even into your adult years you worry about the perception of cool! I stopped worrying about that when I was yet a young adolescent. How free I am, cast off from the artificial burden of "cool." What will I do when some malcontent at the crag silently judegs me. Oh how I wish I could impress these bearded hardmen, if only I was respected enough! Oh how my life would be better!

That work for you bitch?

Yo , bitch. Obviously you have some reading comprehension problems. My post about looking cool was a joke.....

Always... Its quite likely that one of these days you will wish you had...

Yes always and I'm thrilled to see more people wearing them. They're pros who still don't. Apparently they are immune to rock fall and other accidents. In the past helmets were large and bulky, but there is truly no excuse anymore, especially when you see blood splatter on the rock from someone's head. Hard to get rid of those images.

Moreover I will not climb without my partner wearing one. As long as my life is in your hands I'm not gonna risk it.