The deadly ATC

JK- wrote: My understanding is they use a second loop not for redundancy but for organization?

Look at the BD harness. It is redundancy.

Ted Pinson wrote:Yeah, I believe it is for aid climbing, so that you have room to hitch more stuff to your harness. There is absolutely no reason why a single 7 day push would compromise the strength of a belay loop that is in good condition; these things are designed to last several years.

I have never seen the Metolius style used for aid leading per se, but Wall climbers and course setters have been backing up their belay loops with a redundant loop ever since sewn harnesses were invented.

They can go from looking worn, but fine, to dangerous in one route.

I have an extra loop tied to mine with some doubled up tubular 7/16 webbing just for hanging the drill on, clusterfuck belays and to have an extra piece of something to bail off of. Its not for redundancy at all but it cant hurt and its never in the way.

Heck I don't even know if I am palm up or down. I do know that in 35+ years of climbing I have gotten it done in the real world catching real falls and despite some close calls never dropped anyone. Use a combination of Body belay, munter, ATC Guide for fat ropes, petzle variant of same for skinny ropes and gri gri 2 for rope solo, projecting and aid. all depending on the situation.
The one thing I will add to this conversation is that you should NEVER be in a situation where a real FF2 is even a possibility unless you are first ascending or climbing crappy ice/alpine. Your new to intermediate/normal advanced climber should NOT be in that situation. Certainly slab climbing there often is no gear or bolt starting off the belay but is a slideing ass dragging fall really an FF2??? and the leader simply can NOT fall in those situations. If you think its ok to just huck and see what happens on anything other than a bomb proof protected steep climb with a clean fall zone then it's time to go back to the fucking gym/sport crag and stay there.

^^^What he said!

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Heck I don't even know if I am palm up or down. I do know that in 35+ years of climbing I have gotten it done in the real world catching real falls and despite some close calls never dropped anyone. Use a combination of Body belay, munter, ATC Guide for fat ropes, petzle variant of same for skinny ropes and gri gri 2 for rope solo, projecting and aid. all depending on the situation. The one thing I will add to this conversation is that you should NEVER be in a situation where a real FF2 is even a possibility unless you are first ascending or climbing crappy ice/alpine. Your new to intermediate/normal advanced climber should NOT be in that situation. Certainly slab climbing there often is no gear or bolt starting off the belay but is a slideing ass dragging fall really an FF2??? and the leader simply can NOT fall in those situations. If you think its ok to just huck and see what happens on anything other than a bomb proof protected steep climb with a clean fall zone then it's time to go back to the fucking gym/sport crag and stay there.

words to live by

You can always avoid a real factor 2 by simply using the anchor as your first piece of protection. Anyways, i think belaying correctly is important, not just "getting it done". That's not the right attitude. I really dont know why i get suckered into these forums.

I take someone who gets it done any day over a tech weinie gear head..... Isa getting it done FFF P2 of the Cleaver.

Isa Oehry, FFA The Cleaver.
Before you get your pantys all bunched up over bolting a crack, that thing is a huge detached flake that sounded like a tuning fork in Bb when I tapped it with my hammer. I did have a hex in there to drill the bolts on lead but did Not think it was a good idea to take whippers on that thang.....

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Heck I don't even know if I am palm up or down. I do know that in 35+ years of climbing I have gotten it done in the real world catching real falls and despite some close calls never dropped anyone. Use a combination of Body belay, munter, ATC Guide for fat ropes, petzle variant of same for skinny ropes and gri gri 2 for rope solo, projecting and aid. all depending on the situation. The one thing I will add to this conversation is that you should NEVER be in a situation where a real FF2 is even a possibility unless you are first ascending or climbing crappy ice/alpine. Your new to intermediate/normal advanced climber should NOT be in that situation. Certainly slab climbing there often is no gear or bolt starting off the belay but is a slideing ass dragging fall really an FF2??? and the leader simply can NOT fall in those situations. If you think its ok to just huck and see what happens on anything other than a bomb proof protected steep climb with a clean fall zone then it's time to go back to the fucking gym/sport crag and stay there.

Look Nick, I think as we all get older we become more and more adept at picking our routes and managing risk in general. But look at the threads on rusted bolts, some of these things are breaking under body weight due to invisible corrosion or simple age. THOUSANDS of time bombs are out there ready to generate potentially severe fall events at seemingly safe sport climbing areas due to protection bolt failure.

Throw in unexpected loose rock, overconfidence, shit happening etc and at the very least it is something to think about.

I think these threads at least prepare some for thinking about the possibility of holding serious falls more than they considered previously and I think there is some benefit to that.

Chris CW wrote:You can always avoid a real factor 2 by simply using the anchor as your first piece of protection.

This isn't always true. Sometimes the anchor is low, for example at waist level. Even if the anchor is at shoulder level, catching a fall on it will probably mangle the belayer's non-brake hand and, in jamming the device up against the anchor carabiner, possibly release the device.

Then there is the issue of less than perfect anchors. According to some internet theoreticians, there is no such thing, but those of us who have been forced to live in the real world have had the scary experience of having to employ such things. It then becomes an interesting question whether the anchor should be clipped or not, since the factor-2 anchor load is going to be considerably less than the anchor load if the anchor is clipped. In at least one situation I faced a few years ago, I opted for not clipping the anchor rather than apply a much higher load to four fingertip-sized cams in a soft sandstone horizontal. This on a pitch that was very runout and clearly had no further protection for a long way.

[Note: One solution that sometimes can be implemented, depending on the terrain below the belay stance, is to lower the belayer a significant distance below the anchor so that the fall factor onto the anchor is diminished.]

willgadd.com/anchor-clipping/

willgadd.com/anchor-clippin…

blog.alpineinstitute.com/20…

In most situations, clipping the anchor is a bad idea, especially if it's a gear anchor.

Come on RGoLD. You can always keep the anchor above you by just hanging off of it. Extending the anchor point with the rope. And you can always belay off your waist.

Yes Ted. I read what Will Gadd said. Last small paragraph sums it up. Think about what might happen before leader takes off and plan accordingly.Sometimes clipping the top piece on the anchor might not help or be a good idea. I have caught two huge falls near factor 2 in 30 years of climbing. You don't forget.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:I take someone who gets it done any day over a tech weinie gear head..... Isa getting it done FFF P2 of the Cleaver. Before you get your pantys all bunched up over bolting a crack, that thing is a huge detached flake that sounded like a tuning fork in Bb when I tapped it with my hammer. I did have a hex in there to drill the bolts on lead but did Not think it was a good idea to take whippers on that thang.....

Unapologetic thread drift here.

Great photo, Nick! But what happens just after this? I can see the left foot and hands, secure, but ready to blast, but was wondering if the right foot is what will be the leverage to go up? Or, does the climber turn the corner? Or...?

Best, Helen

We sound like some kids talking about jacking off. "Palm up?" or "Palm down?". The big debate.

Chris CW wrote:Come on RGoLD. You can always keep the anchor above you by just hanging off of it. Extending the anchor point with the rope. And you can always belay off your waist.

I said all that in the note at the bottom of my post, with the exception that I didn't say you can "always" do it, and I'm sure you have enough experience to know that "always" isn't true in at least two senses. Sometimes it really isn't practical to chuck the belayer off the stance, and other times when it is at least possible the party may judge the extra time and effort required to be not worth it.

The point is that dealing in absolutes such as always clipping the belay anchor is not a good way to think about climbing solutions. Know what all the options are, do your best to select a solution optimal for the situation you are in, and don't uncritically apply the same solution to every problem.

To continue the palm up/down discussion:

I think the better option is to use a munter hitch for two reasons:

1 it provides more braking power than a tube style a device

2 It allows you to brake in direction of gravity. If you're holding the brake up at your chest then you are resisting a downward pull, working against gravity. In the normal brake position you are resisting an upward pull, using gravity to your advantage. This is the same concept as why hauling systems work better if you're pulling down rather than up.

rgold wrote: Sometimes it really isn't practical to chuck the belayer off the stance, and other times when it is at least possible the party may judge the extra time and effort required to be not worth it.

I think I may have found my all time favorite rgold quote.

At least consider who's buyin' the beers first?

Best, H.

Only if the Munter didn't fuck the rope.

there is no substitute for experience. either you have caught a bunch of falls or you haven't. The 5.6 trad climber who has been at for 30 years has less experience catching falls than a 2 year sport climber. When you launch into something serious it's nice to have the real deal holding your rope... I do learn stuff from reading and ocasionaly add something new to my quiver. just think ther palms up or down circle jerk is not going to solve anything. when the feces hits the ventalator your belayer is going to do what is instinctive. Choose wisely ;)

Roy Suggett wrote: Good point. So let's go back to the munter hitch belay.

We seem to have a difference in opinion on a number of things!
(I still frequent munter hitches.)