Mountain Project Logo

Haul System Feedback

Original Post
Nicholas Aretz · · Lakewood, Colorado · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 55

This summer I will most likely be climbing with a 3 person party and I was thinking of using this set up for our haul. Any advice?

Thanks

Nick

Haul Set Up

Jeff Harmon · · New Jersey · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 260

prussic will probably be problematic.

check out this my friend:
hudonpanos.com/bigwall_tips…

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Replace that draw with a pulley, you're going to get a crazy amount of friction there which will substantially increase the difficulty of hauling.

Nicholas Aretz · · Lakewood, Colorado · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 55

I was thinking I could use my other ascender instead of the hitch.

I have a DMM revolver where the rope runs but I don't have another pulley.

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25

Hudon's version of the 2:1 is the way to go. If you can't do 2:1, bring less crap.

Seth Webster · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 5

I am by no means a hauling expert, but here are my two cents.

A real pulley instead of the revolver would probably be very good. I think that revolvers are only about 10% more efficient than a regular biner. (On the pulley efficiency issue, I would suggest avoiding the Petzl Fixe pulley. Cheap, but not very efficient)

Another thing to consider is having your system in one line. Ideally you would have the pulley that replaces the revolver directly underneath the Pro Traxion. With them next to each other, they will rock back and forth as the different sides take the load. Each time it does that, it robs you of a couple of inches of vertical movement. And over the course of a big wall, that can add up.

As Jeff pointed out, the prussic is problematic. And I highly suggest looking at the pdf he linked to.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

1. if you are in a 3 then you might like to use a counter balance haul as you have a spare person anyhow

2. if you want to use a 3:1 like your photo then (a) replace the revolver with a pulley, (b) replace the prusik with your other jumar (upside down) then attach the rest of the rack to it as a weight and throw it off the cliff. This is the key to a 3:1 - ruining the jumar down the haul line as far as possible each time. This means you don't need to reset it very often.

Nicholas Aretz · · Lakewood, Colorado · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 55

Here is my new design. Better?

Haul w/ Zeb cord

Haul w/ Cord

Close Up of Pulley

Jeff Harmon · · New Jersey · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 260

Was hard at first to see the mechanical advantage, but I do see it. Looks much better.

Here's mine:

Haul system 1

Hs2

Hs3

Hs4

The kid is the rope bag per se. Pig on other line coming up.

It's lean back, snap the slack, reset the pets basic or attach a weight to the basic.

You'll see I have a double wrap of 8 mil attaching the top pulley to the krab. This gives a degree of rotation which is needed to keep everything in line (ptpp cited)

Last idea, put a second pulley on the ascender and you're ready to haul.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Nicholas Aretz wrote:Here is my new design. Better?
Stop using biners as pulleys. You're going to rape yourself hard trying to overcome the friction of the biner over the course of an entire wall. Pulleys are the single most critical component of a hauling system so use the real thing. Dont use garbage brass busing pulleys either, use real ball bearing pulleys. Quality pulleys will make a difference.
Andrew Poet · · Central AZ · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 161

Sorry but where is he using a biner as a pulley in that setup? I honestly don't know, not trying to say there isn't one.

Jeff Harmon · · New Jersey · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 260

He has a biner attached to the ascender. That should be a pulley.

Andrew Poet · · Central AZ · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 161

I see now. Thanks.

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25

Use only ball bearing pulleys. Those crappy little ones with a nylon sheeve or brass bushings are only 70% efficient (biners are about 50%), and lower the mechanical advantage from about 1.8:1 to 1.3:1 just due to poor efficiency. Copy Mark Hudon's hauling setup unless you know better, and if you know better you don't need to be asking questions here.

Nicholas Aretz · · Lakewood, Colorado · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 55
Moof wrote:Copy Mark Hudon's hauling setup unless you know better, and if you know better you don't need to be asking questions here.
I did copy Hudin's design with one modification. I am using the pro and not mini, so I hung the pulley off the protraxion. I do not know better and that is why I am looking for input, however, there are many ways to get the job done and I am investigating the best way with the tools I have.

If you are tired of the conversation you can stop responding at anytime.

Everyone is stressing the importance of pulleys so I am going to invest in a second one.

Thank you for the helpful comments and I can't wait to practice!
Jeff Harmon · · New Jersey · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 260

Hey Nick,

Good call. The second pulley will make a big difference and you don't have to spend a fortune to get one.

Happy Hauling (if there is such a thing!)

J

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25
Nicholas Aretz wrote: I did copy Hudin's design with one modification. I am using the pro and not mini, so I hung the pulley off the protraxion. I do not know better and that is why I am looking for input, however, there are many ways to get the job done and I am investigating the best way with the tools I have. If you are tired of the conversation you can stop responding at anytime. Everyone is stressing the importance of pulleys so I am going to invest in a second one. Thank you for the helpful comments and I can't wait to practice!
I see no resemblence. The 2:1 Hudon uses has a Zee cord, and does not use the main rope for the 2:1 portion. He also uses all good pulleys, never any biners as pulleys or prussik's.

The second attempt is getting there, but still uses a biner as a pulley. Also watch the amount of stretch between you lifting ascender and the traxion. When you release tension on the zed cord the traxion takes the weight. With a couple feet shown in your arrangement you will lose about 10-15% of that couple feet to stretch on every cycle. Try to have your holding ratchet and your lifting ascender nearly touch at the end of each stroke to minimize losses.

Jeff0's rig is a classic case of using crappy pulleys. My partner brought a 2:1 rig on Mideast Crisis with plastic pulleys. The top one melted halfway through the first haul. Using crappy ones costs you about 1/3 loss in mechanicql advantage compared to decent 90% efficent pulleys.
Peter Zabrok · · Hamilton, ON · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 645

Holy crap!

What's with all you Big Wall Theorists trying to re-invent the wheel?

1. 3:1 hauling is almost always overkill. You guys know how much stuff I haul up the big wall. You know how many hundreds of pitches I have hauled. I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to use a 3:1.

2. Use a 2:1 hauling system. Use good ball bearing pulleys. Put the good pulley on top. Yes, you will need a separate zed-cord. Use perlon, not spectra, as spectra will break and scare the shit out of you.

3. 2:1 is neither easy nor intuitive, and requires real practice with real loads on real rock. Go practise hauling a pig at your home crag - don't wait til you get to the big wall to figure out you don't know what you're doing.

It's all here, eh?

climbing.com/skills/tech-ti…

2:1 Hauling Ratchet

A few improvements since Mike! drew this for me:

1. Put two non-locking ovals in parallel on your donut, and clove-hitch the zed cord through both. The ovals are not opposed. You use two so it is easy to adjust the length of the clove hitch on the zed cord.

2. Use 7mm perlon not 6mm or 5.5mm static as mentioned above.

3. You may or may not need to lower the 1:1 hauling device [really just a holding device] depending on the orientation of the whole setup, and how well the pulleys fit together. You can use a wired stopper or tripled sling or whatever, or nothing at all. You just want to make sure the pulleys come mostly together at the top of the lifting stroke.

4. Best pulley on top, less good pulley on the bottom. Use a REAL pulley on top - look for one that is 95 to 97% efficient. Make sure the bottom one is at least 90% efficient. There is NO PLACE for a DMM Revolver in a hauling system - any hauling system!

5. There are four possible orientations of the pulley and zed-cord, so make sure you are using the correct one.

6. There is no sixth thing.

7. Practise! Practise! Practise!

Cheers and beers, hauled easily using this system.

Nicholas Aretz · · Lakewood, Colorado · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 55

Alright I think I have it this time. I know my bottom pulley is only 70% effective but my top one I believe is better.

Lower pulley

Upper pulley

Haul overview

Upper/lower together

Peter Zabrok · · Hamilton, ON · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 645

You REALLY need to tie a sling through the upper pulley, and not connect it to the haul anchor with a carabiner. You need the extra degree of freedom so the pulley can twist into the right orientation. If you put that design under load, it won't work as well because the carabiner restricts the pulley from going into the correct orientation.

I should also mention that these days I attach the inverted ascender to the lower pulley using a maillon rapide to reduce cluster. My inverted ascender is a Petzl Basic which is dedicated to the 2:1 for the entire wall, so I never need to open the quick link.

Jeff Harmon · · New Jersey · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 260

I upgraded my pulleys to 2" PMP SMC's.

Now..just need a 4" frost (to replace the red draw sling)...anyone...anyone...bueller...bueller?

updated haul 2:1

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
Post a Reply to "Haul System Feedback"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.