FrictionLabs chalk: lots of false statements in their website. I would not trust them

I agree w Torren, taking the table below and choosing to describe the results the way FL did, taking advantage of the inherent emotional reaction most people would have to the term "heavy metals", is pretty sneaky.

I'm pretty sure Iron is an inherent part our diet. As for Titanium, I don't have time to research it now, but I'd be pretty shocked if this wasn't the case of the following fallacy:

An unsafe level of Element X is 1 part per 100. Our chalk has .00010 per 100 instead of .00012, therefore that other chalk has a significant level of element X (and by implication our chalk is much safer) .

A little bit of thread drift here, but an interesting story.

Todd Skinner and Paul Piana partially funded a trip to Yosemite in the early eighties selling chalk that they had brought with them. It apparently was really hard to even obtain chalk at that point in time. Now we are arguing about the minutiae of a product that in the great scheme of all things climbing does not matter much. Crazy how times change.

Which 5.15b climbers use FL chalk, how about 5.15a as a % of the total

Which podium or top 10 ranked world cup climbers use FL chalk, i would expect most of em to

Etc ...

;)

Tom Rangitsch wrote:A little bit of thread drift here, but an interesting story. Todd Skinner and Paul Piana partially funded a trip to Yosemite in the early eighties selling chalk that they had brought with them. It apparently was really hard to even obtain chalk at that point in time. Now we are arguing about the minutiae of a product that in the great scheme of all things climbing does not matter much. Crazy how times change.

Yeah but imagine how much harder they would have crushed if they were able to spray about it on the internet afterwards.

Christian wrote:"heavy metals"

Neither Iron nor Titanium is considered heavy metal & I don't think FL is suggesting they are. The Iron part in the report suggests it's bond to Calcium as part of impurity, not that it's a health risk.

bearbreeder wrote: Which 5.15b climbers use FL chalk, how about 5.15a as a % of the total Which podium or top 10 ranked world cup climbers use FL chalk, i would expect most of em to

Given they are a young & small local company, they do have a pretty impressive list of climbers endorsing their product (likes of Alex Puccio, Magnus Midtboe, Dave Graham, Paul Robinson, etc). Chalk is small business, even at 4x the normal price. I doubt these guys are actually getting paid to say good things.

1) The problem with using the term "heavy metals" is that there is no exact definition of what these might be. In general, we think of higher atomic numbers and some level of toxicity in low concentrations, but there is no inclusive list of all heavy metals--and some elements we sometimes call heavy metals (like arsenic and antimony) aren't metals at all.

2) The OP analysis here is interesting in that NO Ca is discovered at all in Metoilus chalk. This is inconsistent with the FL analysis showing very high concentrations of Ca in chalks from all suppliers other than FL itself.

Curt

reboot wrote: Neither Iron nor Titanium is considered heavy metal & I don't think FL is suggesting they are. The Iron part in the report suggests it's bond to Calcium as part of impurity, not that it's a health risk.

That is THE table that summarizes their analysis, I'm honestly curious then which part the "heavy metals" would be?

The way they word this stuff, you really don't think they're implying their brand is safer?

This is straight from the website

I only did a quick read through of the posts and didn't see this mentioned but if there is a safety hazard with chalk it's probably in the crystalline silica which is present in a lot of materials dug out of the ground (at low level) and is carcinogenic when breathed.

I have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering.

Christian wrote: That is THE table that summarizes their analysis

Yes, so read the words too; the entire report makes no mentioning of heavy metal. Whatever FL claims about drying agent (which super chalk explicitly states it contains)/heavy metal, the one report does NOT back that up in any way; it only analyzes % of magnesium carbonate.

Like Curt, I'm more curious how OP found no evidence of Calcium even when FL claims its own highly pure product contains quite a bit of it.

Lou Hibbard wrote:I only did a quick read through of the posts and didn't see this mentioned but if there is a safety hazard with chalk it's probably in the crystalline silica which is present in a lot of materials dug out of the ground (at low level) and is carcinogenic when breathed. I have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering.

I don't have the technical background to do this, but I'd be curious to know whether these measurements of silicon then back up what they're saying or are more a case of "Ours has 20% less than Brand X, but in reality breathing a little bit of brand X might, after twenty years, get you to .000001 % of what's considered unsafe?"

Anecdotes ahoy! A doctor who climbs at the same gym as me told me chalk dust shouldn't harm people's lungs. I would imagine if chalk dust was harmful, it wouldn't be as popular in gymnastics and weightlifting, not to mention climbing.

reboot wrote: Yes, so read the words too; the entire report makes no mentioning of heavy metal. Whatever FL claims about drying agent (which super chalk explicitly states it contains)/heavy metal, the one report does NOT back that up in any way; it only analyzes % of magnesium carbonate. Like Curt, I'm more curious how OP found no evidence of Calcium even when FL claims its own highly pure product contains quite a bit of it.

This is exactly what I was talking about. On their website (see picture below) they claim other chalks contain heavy metals but the third party report that they cite does not mention heavy metals. They are making up data which is unethical.

reboot wrote: Yes, so read the words too; the entire report makes no mentioning of heavy metal. Whatever FL claims about drying agent (which super chalk explicitly states it contains)/heavy metal, the one report does NOT back that up in any way; it only analyzes % of magnesium carbonate. Like Curt, I'm more curious how OP found no evidence of Calcium even when FL claims its own highly pure product contains quite a bit of it.

Exactly, so what is FL's source for saying other chalks contain heavy metals?

They're using the technical definition of "heavy metals" in relation to the lab report to say other chalks have heavy metals, when their chalk has the same heavy metals.

Then, in the website description, they're underhandedly taking advantage of the colloquial definition/perception of the word "heavy metals", which immediately brings to people's minds highly-toxic heavy metals like lead and mercury.

(knowing like 1 out of 1000 people will actually go read the technical report)

Quinn Baker wrote:Anecdotes ahoy! A doctor who climbs at the same gym as me told me chalk dust shouldn't harm people's lungs. I would imagine if chalk dust was harmful, it wouldn't be as popular in gymnastics and weightlifting, not to mention climbing.

Well that was honestly pretty reasonable until the 2nd half. Just because people use something extensively doesn't automatically make it safe. ;)

Christian wrote: Exactly, so what is FL's source for saying other chalks contain heavy metals?

They don't have one, but making unsubstantiated claim is not the same as making false claim.

climbing friend,

do not be so afraid of mediocrity that you buy ridiculous and unnecessary chalk most expensive by factor of 3, also with the boxing donkey and prancing pony on the gourmet coffee packages.

This is most silly, yes, and takes advantage of desperate and insecure climber of the rocks desperate to focus on some pointless thing that might help them improve, such as chalk with possible minuscule difference from other chalk, other than facing their true challenge on the lonely and terrifying road to improvement, of which they are most often completely unaware.

you must not be adding pointless monthly subscriptions to your life or participating in pyramid schemes.

you must focus on your technique dancing tiger style, building your neck meat and eagle claw crushing grip, massive volume of time squeezing the climbing rocks, and be truly willing to take the long fall if clean with good gear.

You must not focus on which chalk feels slightly finer on your tender, limp and moist hands!

Myah!

reboot wrote: They don't have one, but making unsubstantiated claim is not the same as making false claim.

Some of the elements in that analysis could, technically, chemically, be argued to be heavy metals.

They use that to say the other brands have heavy metals, while failing to mention their brand has the exact same "heavy metals", only, supposedly, in smaller quantities (while also taking advantage of the popular perception of the word "heavy metals").

I honestly don't know whether that meets some legal definition of a "false statement", but it's sneaky at best.

"Other chalks have heavy metals." (implied statement: ours doesn't)

"Our chalk is not 100% pure" (translation: we have the same heavy metals, only a little less, and in the context of health outcomes, almost certainly insignificantly less)

I'm no chemist, but Magnesium Carbonate is water-insoluble and Calcium Carbonate is water-soluble, right?
I got 2 samples of chalk (approximately the same size) & put them in a glass of water. Draw your own conclusion, I'm actually convinced FL may not be full of shit:

All I got is some leftover BD MgCO3, somebody want to try Metolius chalk? Given my experience w/ Metolius chalk, I'm more inclined to believe the OP is the one full of it. I did have to crush both after pouring water. The chalk in the left glass only split into 2, the glass was still clear, while the right glass immediately turned into a milky mess.

Climbing friend,

do not forget to focus on your thrusting up!

climbing friend,

they also seem to be quite obsessed with their dope smoking, possible cocaine use, as well as promoting violence when collecting drug or other debts:

"stickiest of the icky"

"nuggets"

"nuggets floating in fine white powder"

"hit the hold like it owes you money"