Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

that guy named seb wrote: Have yet to see a grigri catastrophically fail, the closest i have seen to catastrophic failure is the recall and when a grigri slid down a rope 2 meters because the rope was soaked.

Last time I checked, they don't need fail catastrophically to drop people. I'm just guessing, but I suspect 99.9% of the grigris involved with drops could be picked up and be belayed with just fine.

Healyje wrote: Last time I checked, they don't need fail catastrophically to drop people. I'm just guessing, but I suspect 99.9% of the grigris involved with drops could be picked up and be belayed with just fine.

Grigri's don't drop people, people drop people, leave a grigri to lock up on it's own and it will do it just fine it's only when you have incompetent belayers messing with the function (grabbing the climbers side rope) you get people being dropped. Grigri's have only ever been shown to fail in lab conditions where failure was the intent, there is still no confirmed case of Grigri's having a catastrophic failure in real world conditions (even in gyms).

that guy named seb wrote: When did i say i put 100% faith in my device? Dropping your guard should be a calculated decision same as soloing or simul climbing, i'm not complacent, i'm just not dogmatic and have a understanding of the risks and how the gri gri functions. For gri gri's to fail you need to be either actively incompetent (preventing it from looking up) or there needs to be a catastrophic failure, I trust my device to not catastrophically fail in the very short amount of time that i choose to drop my guard.

OK, so taking you hand off the break side is a calculated risk. Do you ask your climber if they are OK with that risk each time you take you hand off the break line, or do you just assume they are cool with assuming risk?

that guy named seb wrote: Grigri's don't drop people, people drop people, leave a grigri to lock up on it's own and it will do it just fine it's only when you have incompetent belayers messing with the function (grabbing the climbers side rope) you get people being dropped. Grigri's have only ever been shown to fail in lab conditions where failure was the intent, there is still no confirmed case of Grigri's having a catastrophic failure in real world conditions (even in gyms).

I have been dropped by a belayer who took her hand off the rope. Eventually the device locked, but I fell about 60' before it did. She was my girlfriend at the time and I stopped climbing with her immediately because, just like you, she incorrectly thought the GriGri was a hands-free device. She had no burns on her hands which indicated she was not holding onto the rope (plus she admitted it). I also have had the GriGri2 fail to lock while rappelling. I stepped on a ledge, leaned back and the device did not lock immediately. I fell a few feet before it caught. The idea that the GriGri will always lock without any intervention from the belayer is incorrect, thus hints the reason why Petzl has gone to such great lengths to warn the public that letting go of the rope is unsafe.

solid belaying

Take up slack regularly as the second climbs. Never let go of the brake side of the rope. To arrest a fall, firmly grip the brake side of the rope while pulling downward on it.


petzl.com/en/Sport/Belaying…

Either way, I can tell you that there is no way I am climbing with someone who lets go of the rope. Even if we cast aside the risk involved with letting go, if a belayer is so lazy that s/he cannot even hold onto the rope, I have to ask myself, in what other scenarios will s/he be lazy and take short cuts?

Over recent years, there has been much development within the field of belay devices, possibly the most important of which has been the advent of the grigri.

This device manufactured by Petzl functions by running the rope around a pivoting cam that operates smoothly during normal use, but locks completely in the event of a sudden pull on the live rope (i.e. a fall). This provides several advantages over traditional belay devices. Firstly the grigri will lock of its own accord in a fall providing a failsafe anchor. And secondly perhaps it's a useful tool for the novice climber, as in the event of a leader fall the (novice) belayer does not need to actually do anything – the grigri will lock by itself even if the belayer lets go.

Stop! Rewind!
Failsafe? Hands free? How many times have you heard phrases like this used in connection with the grigri? Since its release the grigri has become massively popular with sport climbers and plastic pullers, as it is super convenient for redpointing and working routes. Once a fallen (or should that be resting!) leader is locked off, the belayer doesn’t need to expend any energy at all keeping him or her stationary, as is the case with almost all other methods – in fact he doesn’t even need to hold the rope. Add to this the ease with which slack can be rapidly paid out to a pumping climber for those crucial clips, and you have a sport climber's dream toy, right?

Wrong
Recently, at a climbing wall near you. On nearing the top of a route around the limit of his ability, a climber throws a long dyno for the finishing jug. He gets agonisingly close to sticking it but he’s tired (it’s the end of his session), and slowly peels backwards expecting only a short fall as there’s a bolt by his waist. After cratering onto the concrete floor 10m below, the climber and his belayer try to figure out what went wrong.

Rope: 10.5mm diameter, nearly new, good condition
Belayer: 10 years experience and uses a grigri regularly
Protection: bolt at the waist of the climber, almost no slack in the rope
Fall: very gradual and slow

The last two points are the important ones – there was no slack in the rope and the fall was very gradual, resulting in almost no shock loading to the system. Now, the grigri works by arresting a fall when its pivoting cam locks after a sudden load. If this sudden loading is absent, rope may run through the device without locking the cam to such an extent that an incident such as the above becomes possible – especially if the belayer is holding or pinching the device in any way. The fact that the rope in use was nearly new and probably quite “slick” may have also contributed.

Near-miss of the year:
You’re at the last couple of moves before the chain, but those forearms are totally maxed, fingers opening, feet skating – this is a route for another day. Luckily, you just clipped a bolt and can sit on it and rest rather than take the fall. The next instant, you’re decking out on rope stretch 15 metres down – what’s up with that? Thankfully uninjured but very psyched out, you begin the analysis:

Belayer: had been climbing indoors for 6 months and had recently started using a grigri
Protection: again, a bolt by the waist
Fall: not even a fall really, just slowly and gradually sitting on the rope

thebmc.co.uk/gri-gri-unmask…

that guy named seb wrote: When did i say i put 100% faith in my device?

You said there are times when you can take your hand off the break line. That would mean you are putting 100% faith in your belay device. If the device fails, then what? Where is your backup safety measure? For me it would be my hand. For you it would apparently be nothing. But I guess if I one day become an awesome belayer like you I can start taking my hand off the break line too.

Thanks for posting half the BMC's article, did you read the whole thing where it talks about how these scenarios where only backed up by testing, not real world scenarios.
And 20K i have a few things to ask
1. Did you hit the ground?
2. Did the grigri (eventually) work with out the belayers intervention?
Taking your hand off the break end of the rope matter on lots and lots of factors, factors like, how likely a fall is, the consequences of a long fall, how how much rope they have used, the list goes on. The Grigri work without a a attentive belayer as shown by all the soloing it's used for even 20K's experience backs this up "Eventually the device locked" the difference is simply how well it will work, with a attentive and experienced belayer the Grigri is fantastic, as a device on it's own it's adequate to hold a fall, it wont work as well as a attentive belayer but it (just about) works.

Or instead of trying to factor in 8 million things, just leave you hand on the break line? I mean, is having your hand there such a burden for you?

Matt Wilson wrote: You said there are times when you can take your hand off the break line. That would mean you are putting 100% faith in your belay device. If the device fails, then what? Where is your backup safety measure? For me it would be my hand. For you it would apparently be nothing. But I guess if I one day become an awesome belayer like you I can start taking my hand off the break line too.

100% faith in my device would be going hands free all the time, you are also not thinking about when it could conceivably be okay to take your hand of your device, If your 200 meters of the ground and there is no dangerous landing taking a long fall isn't dangerous even if the grigri completely failed to lock you would still have the anchor and the rope tied into you so they wont deck out even if they fell right at the belay (not that i would ever take my hands off the rope if they are anywhere near the belay). As i said it's a calculated decision.

that guy named seb wrote:Thanks for posting half the BMC's article, did you read the whole thing where it talks about how these scenarios where only backed up by testing, not real world scenarios. And 20K i have a few things to ask 1. Did you hit the ground? 2. Did the grigri (eventually) work with out the belayers intervention? Taking your hand off the break end of the rope matter on lots and lots of factors, factors like, how likely a fall is, the consequences of a long fall, how how much rope they have used, the list goes on. The Grigri work without a a attentive belayer as shown by all the soloing it's used for even 20K's experience backs this up "Eventually the device locked" the difference is simply how well it will work, with a attentive and experienced belayer the Grigri is fantastic, as a device on it's own it's adequate to hold a fall, it wont work as well as a attentive belayer but it (just about) works.

Bullshiet they were real incidents

These two (real) incidents present us with an uncomfortable fact:

Myth: The grigri will always lock of its own accord in the event of a fall, providing a failsafe anchor.

Reality check: If there is no initial shock loading or sudden pull on the rope, the device may not lock AT ALL!


When belaying normally theres NO REASON to purposefully take yr brake hand off the rope

Yr just a lazy belayer trying to justify his lazyness

;)

that guy named seb wrote: 100% faith in my device would be going hands free all the time, you are also not thinking about when it could conceivably be okay to take your hand of your device, If your 200 meters of the ground and there is no dangerous landing taking a long fall isn't dangerous even if the grigri completely failed to lock you would still have the anchor and the rope tied into you so they wont deck out even if they fell right at the belay (not that i would ever take my hands off the rope if they are anywhere near the belay). As i said it's a calculated decision.

Seb-

You're 19. You feel invincible. I felt that way too. As I've gotten older and seen people die from avoidable mistakes (not just climbing, but skiing, driving, drugs, whatever) I've gotten a lot more cautious. If your partner is OK with you regularly taking your brake hand off the rope, that's fine. I wouldn't be, but it's your Faustian bargain to make. Just don't argue that it's not more dangerous. You are trading a safety backup for convenience--which, again, is fine if both parties agree--but be aware of the choice you are making.

bearbreeder wrote: Bullshiet they were real incidents These two (real) incidents present us with an uncomfortable fact: Myth: The grigri will always lock of its own accord in the event of a fall, providing a failsafe anchor. Reality check: If there is no initial shock loading or sudden pull on the rope, the device may not lock AT ALL! When belaying normally theres NO REASON to purposefully take yr brake hand off the rope Yr just a lazy belayer trying to justify his lazyness ;)

Read what i typed about calculating the risks of taking my hand off the rope, going hands free in the gym must be some form of ADHD it's climbing 10-16 meters this will take all of 5 minutes.

that guy named seb wrote: Read what i typed about calculating the risks of taking my hand off the rope, going hands free in the gym must be some form of ADHD it's climbing 10-16 meters this will take all of 5 minutes.

Theres NO REASON to take yr hand off the rope on purpose when lead belaying someone else

If you did need to go "hands free" tie off the device which is a VERY basic skill

Yr just trying to justify yr lazyness and bad habits

Thats all there is to it

Are u really 19?

;)

James Sledd wrote: Seb- .... If your partner is OK with you regularly taking your brake hand off the rope, that's fine. I wouldn't be, but it's your Faustian bargain to make. Just don't argue that it's not more dangerous. You are trading a safety backup for convenience--which, again, is fine if both parties agree--but be aware of the choice you are making.

^^^^
This

James Sledd wrote: Seb- You're 19. You feel invincible. I felt that way too. As I've gotten older and seen people die from avoidable mistakes (not just climbing, but skiing, driving, drugs, whatever) I've gotten a lot more cautious. If your partner is OK with you regularly taking your brake hand off the rope, that's fine. I wouldn't be, but it's your Faustian bargain to make. Just don't argue that it's not more dangerous. You are trading a safety backup for convenience--which, again, is fine if both parties agree--but be aware of the choice you are making.

To say regularly would be a gross exaggeration but i drift you catch, me and my partner are both happy to trust each other to make the correct call when belaying and have a mutual understanding that as long as no one decks out (at speed) and no one gets short roped we are happy to call it good.

that guy named seb wrote:Thanks for posting half the BMC's article, did you read the whole thing where it talks about how these scenarios where only backed up by testing, not real world scenarios. And 20K i have a few things to ask 1. Did you hit the ground? 2. Did the grigri (eventually) work with out the belayers intervention? Taking your hand off the break end of the rope matter on lots and lots of factors, factors like, how likely a fall is, the consequences of a long fall, how how much rope they have used, the list goes on. The Grigri work without a a attentive belayer as shown by all the soloing it's used for even 20K's experience backs this up "Eventually the device locked" the difference is simply how well it will work, with a attentive and experienced belayer the Grigri is fantastic, as a device on it's own it's adequate to hold a fall, it wont work as well as a attentive belayer but it (just about) works.

No, I dident deck because I was on the 2nd pitch of a 2-pitch route when I fell. I did, however, fall the entire pitch all the way down to the 3rd bolt. I am not sure if the belayer did something to cause it to lock or if it locked on its own. Either way it makes absolutely zero difference as that fall could have easily been lethal if I had fallen closer to the ground.

James Sledd wrote: Seb- .... If your partner is OK with you regularly taking your brake hand off the rope, that's fine. I wouldn't be, but it's your Faustian bargain to make. Just don't argue that it's not more dangerous. You are trading a safety backup for convenience--which, again, is fine if both parties agree--but be aware of the choice you are making.

^^^^
This

And I'll add: I've made that bargain before within an experienced threesome regarding ATC Guides in guide mode - all agreed to the day before the longest climb I've ever done on a day that included 13+ miles of hiking - much off trail. There were other moral compromises too. Good memories. But not normal.

bearbreeder wrote: Theres NO REASON to take yr hand off the rope on purpose when lead belaying someone else)

Most of the time there isn't a reason to take your hand of the rope, in standard multi-pitch climbing i can only thing of one instance which would be half deconstructing a belay (helps speed things up) going hands free only tends to come in useful on big walls where you might need to start doing allot of things really quickly when they near the top of the pitch.

that guy named seb wrote: Most of the time there isn't a reason to take your hand of the rope, in standard multi-pitch climbing i can only thing of one instance which would be half deconstructing a belay (helps speed things up) going hands free only tends to come in useful on big walls where you might need to start doing allot of things really quickly when they near the top of the pitch.

You havent learned how to tie off a device in 5 seconds?

I suggest the instructions on petzls web site

Any competent climber can tie off a device in a few seconds

In fact any competent climber can do many things while holding the brake strand lightly including taking apart anchors

I didnt know you were gunning for the nose in a day records !!!

;)

bearbreeder wrote: You havent learned how to tie off a device in 5 seconds? I suggest the instructions on petzls web site Any competent climber can tie off a device in a few seconda I didnt know you were gunning for the nose in a day records !!! ;)

Nose i a day i would have to simul climb :P, tying the device off wouldn't allow me to react immediately if the leader needed slack.