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Too much "beta" on MP... losing sense of adventure

Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

I like a picture of the cliff to help find the route - and I like good beta on finding the rappel to get back down. Other than that I don't want anything else - well the location of the camping etc is always nice. But hey - I'm old too.

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

I know I can't be the only one who does this, but I will throw it out there anyway:

You can create a "sense of adventure" by simply limiting the amount of beta you read / have access to.

Sometimes I go out into the mountains with just a map and a compass. Sometimes I bring pages from a guidebook / route description. Sometimes I get the full move-by-move spraydown complete with highlighted beta photos. It's not like "don't clip the bolts" because once you're out there, you only have whatever you brought with you (and you aren't changing the experience for anyone else).

It all depends on what you want. There are days when I just want to go out into the mountains and find my way to the top of something. Then there are days where I just want to sit on my bouldering pad and spray about the hardest way to get up a pebble.

Personally I'm glad to have options.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

I agree with that 100%, Ryan. That's exactly what I do, too: from climbing something never done before to asking for every piece of gear I will need to hangdog this thing, and everything in between.

Ahmed IbnHabibjan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 65
Rframe · · Post Falls, ID · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 55
Trycycle wrote:too much beta. not enough beta. the grades are too hard. the grades are too soft. i hate dogs. i hate kids. i love dogs. i love kids. i hate bolts. sport climbing is the best. tick marks are cheating. i remember when crash pads didn't exist. aid climbing is rad. the 60s where the best. the crag is too crowded. the gym is too expensive. where did the dirt-bags go. how come i can't climb harder. its easier because you're taller. its easier because you're shorter. "Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit!" -as said by Sarah Marshall in Forgetting Sarah Marshall Climbers are THE WORST.
As a new climber, this would accurately sum up my impression of the online climbing community after many of my lurking sessions.
Crackhack · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

I've got a sense of humor... I'll accept the jabs of being an old fart yelling at the kids to get off my lawn, but that is not really an appropriate analogy... you darn kids can stay on my lawn, but only if you play the games I dictate!

I think this is more an observation about the future, than trying to tell people how to have fun.

There is ever finer beta details on sites like this, as well as innovation like Mammut's Project 360 and every other joe GoPro-ing and Youtubing their ascents. I can envision a not-too-distant future where we can theoretically figure out every move on a route without ever having been there. It may not get there in one quantum leap, but I'd argue we're slowly getting there. Now, get off my lawn you troublemaking kids!

Jason Halladay · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 15,153
Crackhack wrote:I admit, I'm older than the average climber on MP and I'm also becoming a technophobe, but MP seems to be transforming the climbing experience into paint-by-numbers. In case some of you young lads don't know what paint-by-numbers is... oh, never mind. Not sure if this please-spew-some-beta-pic-included post is a troll or not, but it feels like a slippery slope to be discussing move-by-move beta.

I feel it's very situational and the above example of move-by-move beta would be, in my book, normal sport climbing beta-solicitation and, in fact, can be very beneficial to sending a project. Now that the OP of that thread has had his onsight attempt and is clearly projecting the route, going over beta move by move on the days (or weeks) between attempts is a great way to keep it fresh in one's mind and get psyched for the next attempt.
Now I'd consider it a bit over the top if one were searching for this kind of beta before even trying the route but that's a personal decision. I do get your point about adventure and leaving some things unknown but the fact is that's not the attitude of all climbers and I don't see anything wrong with that. I will concede that type of beta solicitation does greatly diminish adventure and it's not for me but...

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

"Me, me, me..Nobody should have access to beta because I don't like it and obviously, the world revolves around me.

I am so courageous and adventurous in every possible activity known to man that I would never ask for any information that might make the experience safer and/or more pleasurable.." ( lol, I should take you surfing sometime and see how adventurous you really are)

I personally wouldn't ask about specific beta for a sport route on MP, but that's only because I am lucky enough to have a ton of people I can ask for it in real life.

FWIW, the guy who posted on the 10+ was ballsy to do it and take the easily-foreseen ridicule that would be dished his way, and he's asking much more intelligent questions about movement and body positioning than I was when I was climbing 10+.

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

The number of route descriptions with too much info is equaled by the number of route descriptions with misinformation. If you follow some of the beta here, you will really be sticking your neck out there!

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Crackhack wrote:I've got a sense of humor... I'll accept the jabs of being an old fart yelling at the kids to get off my lawn, but that is not really an appropriate analogy... you darn kids can stay on my lawn, but only if you play the games I dictate!
Its when the kids dig up my lawn and plant trees - because after all everyone should have the right to shade - more people can enjoy it now - that I get annoyed. Find a new lawn that no one has ever used and beautify that. The lawn that has been used as is for 50 years doesn't need to be changed.
Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

Climbing friend!

You will not make excellent hard flash of 5.13+ pumping thinking route without this beta. You must first know size and shape of hold on the climbing rocks. Are they many small square shapes? Are they sharp like Norwegian icicle stings you finger?

You must have knowing where crux is. You must have knowing of length of route for no go off end of rope. You must have knowing of how many fish-heads you eat during climb. You must have knowing of what kind of 4 plan to complete in order you feel refreshed at crux during flash. You must rappel down and brushing every hold making much use of the pre-inspecting! You must have someone like Sven Lavransen yelling at you every move from the ground or you no make flash!

YOU CANNOT MAKE EXCELLENT HARD FLASH, ENJOYABLE FLASH, PUMPING FLASH, OR THINKING FLASH, WITHOUT EXCELLENT, ENJOYABLE, BETA!

You can no try the flash without beta! No!

Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
Aleks Zebastian wrote:Climbing friend! You will not make excellent hard flash of 5.13+ pumping thinking route without this beta. You must first know size and shape of hold on the climbing rocks. Are they many small square shapes? Are they sharp like Norwegian icicle stings you finger? You must have knowing where crux is. You must have knowing of length of route for no go off end of rope. You must have knowing of how many fish-heads you eat during climb. You must have knowing of what kind of 4 plan to complete in order you feel refreshed at crux during flash. You must rappel down and brushing every hold making much use of the pre-inspecting! You must have someone like Sven Lavransen yelling at you every move from the ground or you no make flash! YOU CANNOT MAKE EXCELLENT HARD FLASH, ENJOYABLE FLASH, PUMPING FLASH, OR THINKING FLASH, WITHOUT EXCELLENT, ENJOYABLE, BETA! You can no try the flash without beta! No!
Spot on mate. A great peice of advice. Hope you share out the fish heads when I meet up with you.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I guessing I'm an even older and fartier fart than Crackhack. One has to remember that climbing has evolved, and with that evolution come people whose interests and goals are not quite the same as the interests and goals of earlier generations. One way of viewing the evolution is from the perspective of the trad/sport dichotomy, and there is little doubt that sport climbing has driven most of the changes in climbing in, say, the last thirty years. But whatever the original sources of ferment, I think one might understand modern rock climbing better using a different framework.

What I have in mind might be called the tension between adventure climbing and performance climbing. The fundamental ingredient in adventure climbing is uncertainty---that's where the adventure comes from. The fundamental ingredient in performance climbing is...performance. These are different perspectives on what can often be the same activity, and the way climbers treat their goals and projects (and evaluate others' successes and failures) depends on which genre they are embracing at the moment, (It is important to understand that the terms describe approaches to climbing and not climbers, who may or may not embrace just one approach.)

If climbing is a sport, then I think the adventure genre is something of an anomaly, belonging to the vanishing realm of exploration as much or more than performance. The performance genre of climbing is much closer to other sporting endeavors; gymnastics especially seems to be an appropriate analogy. The gymnast tries to learn routines of great difficulty (for the person in question) on various apparatuses. In doing so, they employ every possible resource: hand spotting, overhead mechanics, videotaping, breaking the routine into small bits, all the beta available from experienced coaches, etc, and even with all this the outcome in a meet is far from guaranteed, because the difficulty level is high.

I see performance climbing in the same light. The rock is, for the performance climber, an apparatus supplying a routine to be mastered, and it would be bizarre and counterproductive to deny oneself important information as part of the mastery process.

Gym climbing is performance climbing. Most sport climbing is performance climbing. Trad climbing can really be treated either as adventure or performance climbing, so I think it is in the trad realm that adventure vs. performance emerges most clearly.

To the extent that adventure and performance climbing are simply different individual perspectives, it would seem to me that everyone ought to be able to keep their undies untwisted. Live and let live. When real problems occur is when folks embracing one genre want to physically alter the "apparatus" in order to conform to their view of the activity, with the presence and use of bolts being one of the issues around which the controversies crystallize.

For me, beta is a non-issue, because it doesn't involve physical alterations. If you are a climber in performance mode, then you want all the beta you can possible acquire. If you are in adventure mode, you want only some minimal amount to point you in the right direction, and maybe none.

Mountain Project's raison d’être is beta. That's what it is here for, but no one reading the forums is obliged to consult the performance threads if it is adventure they are after.

Rob Cotter · · Silverthorne, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 240

i still scare the shit out of myself every winter, that counts for something...

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

nicely done rgold... probably the best articulation of the difference I've read to date.

Ahmed IbnHabibjan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 65
Shawn Mitchell · · Broomfield · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 250

Impressive stuff, RGold. Nothing better than smart thoughts plainly expressed and easily read.

Scott Phil · · NC · Joined May 2010 · Points: 258
rgold wrote:one might understand modern rock climbing better using a different framework -- the tension between adventure climbing and performance climbing. The fundamental ingredient in adventure climbing is uncertainty---that's where the adventure comes from. The fundamental ingredient in performance climbing is...performance. These are different perspectives on what can often be the same activity, and the way climbers treat their goals and projects (and evaluate others' successes and failures) depends on which genre they are embracing at the moment, (It is important to understand that the terms describe approaches to climbing and not climbers, who may or may not embrace just one approach.)
Thoughtful and articulate analysis! Thanks, rgold.
Mitch Musci · · Estes Park, CO · Joined Apr 2002 · Points: 665

I have put up a few obscure climbs in RMNP and decided to err on the side of detailed beta vs. "just enough to get you to the base". My intention for establishing the climbs in the first place was to not only experience the sense of adventure but also to contribute routes for the enjoyment of all. It is my theory that offering a more detailed account of an obscure climb will attract more climbers to repeat that route and hence enjoy a climb that otherwise would be largely overlooked and perhaps never repeated.

IMO, with climbing popularity continuing to grow, it's great to have options. I don't feel ashamed to write up a guidebook style account of a climb, and I feel it is a bit of an art to be able to write effective descriptions without revealing those details that are best left for discovery.

Ben Mackall · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 1,823

Rgold, thanks for the thoughtful and articulate response here. It's sometimes hard to wade through the morass of trolling and nonanswers that is so prevalent here in the MP forums (and which in this poster's opinion contribute to rather than attempt to alleviate or mediate any existing problems). MP would be a better place if conversations and thoughts such as what you've posted were the norm rather than the exception. Way to keep it classy.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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