Ethics behind retro bolting how far do they go?

I believe bolting the retro is not something allowed. Sven Lavransen always tell to me to no add bolts to established climb, no matter how scared I be on the climbing rocks.

kennoyce wrote: No, that would most certainly be a trad climb.

Not in CT.. 1 bolt = sport climb lol but then again we special folk.

kennoyce wrote: No, that would most certainly be a trad climb.

What are you smoking? It must be really good!
A trad climb is a climb typically protected with traditional gear that was used for free climbing before the popularization of bolts in climbing. This gear consists of stoppers (nuts, chocks, etc.), tricams, and SLCDs or cams.
A sport climb is a climb that is protected by bolts or fixed pins.
Climbs that utilize trad gear when it is provided by the rock and bolts where there aren't any features the place trad gear in are referred to as mixed

You spoke of not being able to contact the FA parties in the future.

The efficiency with which our advocates are churning out new drill operators virtually ensures that the majority of the authors of existing bolt lines will be alive and well and available for comment, about five years or so into the future...

Hell, some of them might even be out of college or married by then.

My 0.002 cents worth, but speaking as a nobody who's managed to hike far enough and suffer enough to find new rock and put up a few lines here and there over the space of a few years, I'd say that the lines done, whether on top rope, trad gear and/or bolts, should be respected for the way the first ascent party did them.

Again, perspective, but maybe they should be seen, even your theoretical 12b/c solo, as a personal challenge for the first ascent party that had little or nothing to do with anyone beyond the limits of that party.

Perhaps we could begin to see climbs, in their original form, as an opportunity to cross the bridge of time and experience them in the same mode as whoever took the time and made the not-inconsiderable effort to put them up.

In the end, I believe that, although there will always be exceptions and variables beyond number or listing, in most cases, lines should be climbed as-is until such time that you can prove there is no more rock to be developed on public or private lands within the continent on which you live.

But that's just me.

Carry on.

eli poss wrote: What are you smoking? It must be really good! A trad climb is a climb typically protected with traditional gear that was used for free climbing before the popularization of bolts in climbing. This gear consists of stoppers (nuts, chocks, etc.), tricams, and SLCDs or cams. A sport climb is a climb that is protected by bolts or fixed pins. Climbs that utilize trad gear when it is provided by the rock and bolts where there aren't any features the place trad gear in are referred to as mixed

As usual, Eli Poss has no idea what he's talking about.

Believe it or not, trad stands for traditional and traditionally, bolts were used in climbing long before cams or nuts were even dreamed about. Trad generally means a climb that was esrablished from the ground up with all bolts and gear being placed on lead. Sport on the other hand is defined as a well protected bolted climb where you can focus on the movement. Mixed is not even a true rock climbing term (though it is being incorrectly used more and more frequently) and refers to climbing a combination of rock and ice.

kennoyce wrote: As usual, Eli Poss has no idea what he's talking about. Believe it or not, trad stands for traditional and traditionally, bolts were used in climbing long before cams or nuts were even dreamed about. Trad generally means a climb that was esrablished from the ground up with all bolts and gear being placed on lead. Sport on the other hand is defined as a well protected bolted climb where you can focus on the movement. Mixed is not even a true rock climbing term (though it is being incorrectly used more and more frequently) and refers to climbing a combination of rock and ice.

Technically, yes mixed is not the correct term but I have seen it in a few guide books and haven't seen our heard any other term for that. And while bolts were used before the invention of the modern chock, they weren't used nearly as much as they are today until the big sport climbing movement in Europe. Before then, climbing was generally limited to cracks or faces with features to place trad gear in. And while most sport climbs are well protected, not all are. The way I defined trad and sport is the way the terms are used in route beta like guidebooks or online databases like MP.

Ah the "Community" gambit. Here's the deal. A "Community" of climbers, actually spanning now a couple generations, decided that bolts should be kept to a minimum, that rockclimbing wasn't just about the moves, that it's Ok to get scared sometimes,that you should have enough sense and skills to investigate shit without getting hurt too.

Any so called community that thinks they know just the right amount of bolts to make things just right for a community of poltroons, backed up by a posse of route setters...lol...who frequently have no idea how many times something they find scary or uncomfortable has actually been led by people who just get shit done,just everyday people, that's right, sorry, most routes are put up by mere mortals, is not actually representative of any climbing community.You just think you and your buds are....

Honnold repeated Southern Belle, the grand-daddy of climbs you are crying about.

tsaint.... sorry to come off as harsh. As you can see the incorrect use of a word, esp. on the net, causes confusion.

When I started climbing there was only "climbing." The subgroups were "Aid" ....you put your weight on the gear. And "Free Climbing" you did not put your weight on the gear. - throw in ICE climbing as the other type of climbing.

Most climbs followed a natural line of weakness... a crack - one could pound pins into, for Free or Aid climbing and climb UP something.

I come from California; we have big granite faces that are void of cracks.

Free climbing up these faces was quite an adventure, in some places like Yosemite Valley, there are ledges every now and then with a crack at the back.

One put in a pin, clipped in and started up for the next ledge, hopefully with a crack for some more pro.

This sort of stuff went on for years back in the 1950's and early 60’s.....and those climbs are still the same now as they were back in 1956.

Then at Suicide in 1966, P. Callis and L. Reynolds put in a BOLT to protect the crux of this fine face climb.

This was a big deal, they took some shit for what they had done, but the race to put up face climbs was on.

The next year Bob Kamps and Mark Powell climbed Chingadera; this one had some gear down low but ended up about 70 feet from the top, looking at blank face.

In a tremendous display of skill Bob and Mark worked in some bolts from the worst stances you could imagine. (Trust me; it’s very hard to just clip those bolts)

The climbing world, in California, stopped complaining about those BOLTS and face climbing….

Unless back east, those boys were- and still are- stubborn, and they resisted bolts. It took a few years for them to come around.

So by the early 1970’s an ethic had formed and it went something like this: “under pain of death, one shalt not add bolts to another man’s climb”
Pretty simple, no.

And remember this; none of these climbs had any gear placed on rappel. That was unheard of, one would rather admit to liking sheep better than women then go rap-bolt!

By the early 1980’s Sport climbing showed up and it was a rocky marriage of styles, fist fights occurred, best friends became mortal enemy’s….

In many places of the US the two coexist in peace and harmony, but not in the east, they are still fighting and from some of the comments here the battle is still on.

End of History Lesson/Rant.

eli poss wrote: What are you smoking? It must be really good! A trad climb is a climb typically protected with traditional gear that was used for free climbing before the popularization of bolts in climbing. This gear consists of stoppers (nuts, chocks, etc.), tricams, and SLCDs or cams. A sport climb is a climb that is protected by bolts or fixed pins. Climbs that utilize trad gear when it is provided by the rock and bolts where there aren't any features the place trad gear in are referred to as mixed

Try again. Kennoyce has it exactly right. Bolt does not = sport

kennoyce wrote: As usual, Eli Poss has no idea what he's talking about. Believe it or not, trad stands for traditional and traditionally, bolts were used in climbing long before cams or nuts were even dreamed about. Trad generally means a climb that was esrablished from the ground up with all bolts and gear being placed on lead. Sport on the other hand is defined as a well protected bolted climb where you can focus on the movement. Mixed is not even a true rock climbing term (though it is being incorrectly used more and more frequently) and refers to climbing a combination of rock and ice.

Don't confuse the guy. Saying things like that make you sound like nit picker. And no not all sport lines are bolted just so safely that you can focus on your movement. If you climb outside you will know that some of the lines require to pass the next bolt at waist line and such and can have quite committing moves that can result in a decker. Like I said do not confuse the youngin.

csproul wrote: Try again. Kennoyce has it exactly right. Bolt does not = sport

Stop confusing the dude. You sound like a nitpick too. Don't eat your young.

csproul wrote: Try again. Kennoyce has it exactly right. Bolt does not = sport

Disclaimer: I'm not saying you are wrong I just want to get to the source of this confusion

Can you cite an example in some written text, be it on paper or online, where a bolted climb is referred to as a trad climb. Because in any guidebooks I've seen, bolts=sport and no bolts(other than bolted belays)=trad. In addition, this is, to my knowledge, how climbs are categorized here on the Proj. Also, at many sport crags in Chattanooga, there are climbs where one can deck between in first bolt and the second bolt, and not just if they blow a clip. For example, the other day I was on Volgen Slab in Leda and I was only 2 ft above the first bolt and I had my foot on the wrong hold so I slipped and decked. Luckily it only resulted in giving me a scare and my partner having to lead it, but I had blown the second clip, I'd imagine I could be out for the season.

eli poss wrote: Can you cite an example in some written text, be it on paper or online, where a bolted climb is referred to as a trad climb.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/final-link/105739985

Ground-up vs top-down is the distinction. My pet-peeve is with R rated rap-bolted climbs that were TR'd into submission before the send. In my mind these would be candidates for retro-bolting/re-engineering, with input from the FA if at all possible. An example from the same crag:

mountainproject.com/v/if-lo…

Edit: I have no idea how the FA actually went down on this climb

The dude is completely confused now.

Daniel Winder wrote: mountainproject.com/v/final… Ground-up vs top-down is the distinction. My pet-peeve is with R rated rap-bolted climbs that were TR'd into submission before the send. In my mind these would be candidates for retro-bolting/re-engineering, with input from the FA if at all possible. An example from the same crag: mountainproject.com/v/if-lo… Edit: I have no idea how the FA actually went down on this climb

I've never climbed there but based on the description it sounds like it is labeled as trad because the first pitch is a crack climb. But then again it is in Utah so...

Guy Keesee wrote:tsaint....

awesome write up Guy! Yup, we've had three crags chopped in NE this past year but really seems to be just an old disgruntled man... the same one.

Did I miss it upstream? Has no one mentioned the B-Y yet?

eli poss wrote: I've never climbed there but based on the description it sounds like it is labeled as trad because the first pitch is a crack climb. But then again it is in Utah so...

Look up trad climbing on wikipedia, see the last sentence of the second paragraph.

Eli.... This climb has only bolts for pro, 6 in 150 feet... you tell me if its a sport climb.

KatieKorn on the water crack

I guess there is some confusion about the definition of a sport climb... maybe a regional thing.

In TM there is sportclimbing lined up right next to uber trad, go to the base of the B&Y and Peace. They coexist, sort of a nice thing IMHO.

The B & Y

I agree that the worst is a rehearsed, on TR- then boldly bolted on Rap. sportclimb.

We have a few around here in California like that and they are quietly getting re-bolted. Not really retro bolted, but rebolted. Old bolts gone, with new climbs following the natural line of holds.

Look up Vista Mt on MP, some of the old climbs are gone, by by 5.13c that never had an ascent, hello 5.11b ....

So Retro-bolting is going on, I don't do it but I feel its a local climber thing to do, just leave the old time climbs alone, The historic masterpieces should be saved for future climbers to test themselves.

And that fellow back east..... METH

Happy he dosen't live out west... I am sure some western justice would be applied.

So fun topic... I like knuckle banging discussions on the net, that is what its made for.

Off to work, then to TM for some mellow old school climbing, a wedding for a friend and a close out for my "lost summer".

eli poss wrote: Technically, yes mixed is not the correct term but I have seen it in a few guide books and haven't seen our heard any other term for that. And while bolts were used before the invention of the modern chock, they weren't used nearly as much as they are today until the big sport climbing movement in Europe. Before then, climbing was generally limited to cracks or faces with features to place trad gear in. And while most sport climbs are well protected, not all are. The way I defined trad and sport is the way the terms are used in route beta like guidebooks or online databases like MP.

..... Mixed is the correct term, as in mixed protection. You have to be a pretty big jackass to look a your guidebook for a typically trad area and see a 200' route and see that it has 2 bolts so you leave all your gear at home because you thinks its a sport climb. If you do that.... well, you deserve what you get coming to you, or you see that its less than your limit, man up and send the shit, not bitch on the internet that something fooled you.