for the safety of the so. az climbing community...proper gri gri technique

Given the small number of climbers posting to this forum and the fact that several of them have experience or second hand experience with grigri failure and misuse, is there really a good reason to use a grigri?

It seems the misuse rate, especially threading a grigi backwards but also holding the cam open, is fairly high. I have been belayed on a grigri only a few times but know of at least one instance where the rope was threaded backwards(by an experience climber who regularly uses a grigri). Fortunately the error was noticed before the actual climbing began.

It seems the misuse rate and accident rate with ATC devices is much less. I have heard of someone getting killed because the rope was not clipped through the carabiner in a repelling accident and I imagine somebody has not kept the brake hand on the rope although I have not heard the story. However there is no myth that the ATC will work properly without the brake hand on the rope so climbers are pretty aggressive about pointing out that error; whereas with a grigri even if you point out the error your are likely to get resistance to using proper technique.

jbaker wrote: .... I still think the safest belay is an out-rigged body belay.

I have caught many falls this way, including a 60-foot zipper fall. I remember back in the 70's (?) when I saw my first Sticht belay device. "Those will never catch on," I said to myself.

Technology isn't always the answer. Of course, lowering with a body belay was torture.

Pat Gioannini wrote:Given the small number of climbers posting to this forum and the fact that several of them have experience or second hand experience with grigri failure and misuse, is there really a good reason to use a grigri? It seems the misuse rate, especially threading a grigi backwards but also holding the cam open, is fairly high. I have been belayed on a grigri only a few times but know of at least one instance where the rope was threaded backwards(by an experience climber who regularly uses a grigri). Fortunately the error was noticed before the actual climbing began. It seems the misuse rate and accident rate with ATC devices is much less. I have heard of someone getting killed because the rope was not clipped through the carabiner in a repelling accident and I imagine somebody has not kept the brake hand on the rope although I have not heard the story. However there is no myth that the ATC will work properly without the brake hand on the rope so climbers are pretty aggressive about pointing out that error; whereas with a grigri even if you point out the error your are likely to get resistance to using proper technique.

Good point Pat - it is interesting to note that the GriGri is designed to be safer than plate belay devices but appears to be associated with more accidents.

Jon Ruland wrote: the guy who almost dropped me had been climbing for 15 years and had never dropped anyone either, but it only takes one fuckup to kill someone.

Jon, just out of curiosity, what was the brand and diameter of rope of the rope that you were using?

Coeus wrote: I'm pretty sure that if you don't touch anything in a fall situation and have your hands in your pockets, the gri gri will lock. I haven't seen anything happen, or heard of anything happening that would suggest that Jon's rule #2 is true. Has anyone seen anything to the contrary? I bring this up mostly because I feel that some people hold fast to old information like "never let go of the brake hand." While I feel that this is a good habit, it isn't exactly the whole truth for gri gris.

The truth is people are stupid and need to follow rules in order not to kill themselves/others. just like rules of the road, some can handle a few beers and a drive, some cant. some can talk on the phone all the way across the country without an accident or incident, some will kill on old lady out for her daily walk a block from their house.

I have to say that 99% of the time its the strictly "trad" climbers that argue this point about the grigri, the average sport climber I know very often has both hands in their pockets. Sometimes one hand with a lighter and one with a glass bowl.

My favorite is getting short roped by these so called grigri experts while on lead. Give me some rope NOW GOD DAMNIT!

Bob wrote: Jon, just out of curiosity, what was the brand and diameter of rope of the rope that you were using?

i don't remember exactly but i know it was at least 10mm. my belayer was using a trango cinch.

Pat Gioannini wrote:Given the small number of climbers posting to this forum and the fact that several of them have experience or second hand experience with grigri failure and misuse, is there really a good reason to use a grigri? It seems the misuse rate, especially threading a grigi backwards but also holding the cam open, is fairly high. I have been belayed on a grigri only a few times but know of at least one instance where the rope was threaded backwards(by an experience climber who regularly uses a grigri). Fortunately the error was noticed before the actual climbing began. It seems the misuse rate and accident rate with ATC devices is much less. I have heard of someone getting killed because the rope was not clipped through the carabiner in a repelling accident and I imagine somebody has not kept the brake hand on the rope although I have not heard the story. However there is no myth that the ATC will work properly without the brake hand on the rope so climbers are pretty aggressive about pointing out that error; whereas with a grigri even if you point out the error your are likely to get resistance to using proper technique.

because in the hands of someone who actually takes their belay job seriously, a grigri is safer than an ATC in most sport climbing situations.

as for threading it backwards--the preclimb ritual of me and my closest climbing buddies includes yanking on the rope to make sure it locks in the grigri. if it just zips right through then obviously it's not threaded right. if you practice proper safety techniques, which include properly checking your belay device before you climb, you won't climb with it threaded backwards.

climb with people who care about safety as much as you do and avoid people who don't practice proper safety techniques. if you do this then you'll find that grigris are the perfect belay device for hard sport wankin.

P LaDouche wrote: The truth is people are stupid and need to follow rules in order not to kill themselves/others. just like rules of the road, some can handle a few beers and a drive, some cant. some can talk on the phone all the way across the country without an accident or incident, some will kill on old lady out for her daily walk a block from their house. I have to say that 99% of the time its the strictly "trad" climbers that argue this point about the grigri, the average sport climber I know very often has both hands in their pockets. Sometimes one hand with a lighter and one with a glass bowl. My favorite is getting short roped by these so called grigri experts while on lead. Give me some rope NOW GOD DAMNIT!

yes, but i would also expand on this and add that occasionally we're all going to do something stupid.

Improper use of a Gri-Gri almost killed me several years back. I was always worried about the Guys belay practice with the device as he always held it in the open position.
The Guy was very experienced and assured me everything was ok until he wasn't paying attention one day and dropped me 40ft.
Did this Guy change his Gri-Gri belay habits after this... Nope! What a Baaastard!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe Lee wrote: Are there climbers out there that have never used an atc style belay device who haven't developed an effective reflex for locking off the rope???? Never thought about that. Maybe their natural reflex is to keep hand in place. Scary.

Very Scary!

i've been belaying with these things for years now....

Fingertrap

Nathan Scherneck wrote:i've been belaying with these things for years now....

+1 Yes, with one end on your strongest finger and the other on the tail end of the rope, they are foolproof and a mainstay in the Chinese climbing community I hear. At least that's the way I was taught to use them.

I have been dropped to the ground taking unexpected lead falls with both a gri gri and an ATC. I never figured out why I was dropped with the gri-gri. I know that the ATC belayer was distracted. The real problem is climbing so smoothly that your belayer doesn't think you will fall. Safety conscious climbers learn how to look like they are always about to fall while leading, which means constant shaking, fearful cursing, hesitating and lots of yelling. Watch me here. Watch me, I going to peel, I can't do this, oh my god....

I have found that if I shake, curse, hesitate and yell constantly, it leads to "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome.

Joe Lee wrote:I climb with a lot of bold climbers. That means I catch a lot of falls. I also use a grigri when sport climbing. So I'm puzzled by all the misuses of the grigri. What is the reflexive behavior of the people doing it wrong. Is their conditioned reflex during a leader fall to keep the brake hand in place and squeeze tighter? Seems kind of odd. When I use a grigri, during a leader fall, my hand always ends up past my thigh behind me just as if I was using an atc. I don't think about it. It just ends up there. Are there climbers out there that have never used an atc style belay device who haven't developed an effective reflex for locking off the rope???? Never thought about that. Maybe their natural reflex is to keep hand in place. Scary.

reflex shouldn't even be a factor if you're using the device correctly. you hold the cam down to pay out rope for clipping and that's it. if someone needs a reflex to catch a leader fall, they've already misused the device.

md3 wrote:I have been dropped to the ground taking unexpected lead falls with both a gri gri and an ATC. I never figured out why I was dropped with the gri-gri. I know that the ATC belayer was distracted. The real problem is climbing so smoothly that your belayer doesn't think you will fall. Safety conscious climbers learn how to look like they are always about to fall while leading, which means constant shaking, fearful cursing, hesitating and lots of yelling. Watch me here. Watch me, I going to peel, I can't do this, oh my god....

haha! though i actually agree with you. when i was almost dropped, i just let go without saying anything. if i had said "falling" or "watch me" going into the move, i doubt anything would have gone wrong. that doesn't mean it was my fault, but i still would have been safer for it.

andy peter tretiakoff wrote:Improper use of a Gri-Gri almost killed me several years back. I was always worried about the Guys belay practice with the device as he always held it in the open position. The Guy was very experienced and assured me everything was ok until he wasn't paying attention one day and dropped me 40ft. Did this Guy change his Gri-Gri belay habits after this... Nope! What a Baaastard!!!!!!!!!!!!

i think you told me about that incident a while back. if he hasn't changed his ways then i hope you warned everyone you know to stay away from him.

Coeus wrote: Do you have evidence that suggests that not touching the ropes or the device would cause the gri gri to fail? Otherwise I am suggesting this very type of response is the result of what I refer to as "old school climber superstition." Case in point, a friend of mine took a lead fall, his wife was anchored to a tree, belaying. She knocked her helmeted head into the tree during the fall and became unconscious. She was clearly not in control of the break strand, or any other part of the system for that matter. My friend is still here because of the fact that the gri gri locked up without any help from the belayer.

This is dumb. There are dozens of cases of GriGri failure which could have been prevented by simply keeping a brake hand on the rope (note: these did not involve keeping the cam open). I personally experienced a drop while cleaning a route for development. The GriGri requires a "shock" to the system to engage the cam. If someone gently releases, think at the end of a climb, to rest at a bolt, etc, the rope will slide right on through, unless the belayer has a firm grip on the brake strand.

And about your buddy.. If his wife was launched that hard into a tree, she had already arrested the fall and the device had engaged before she struck. Further, if she was belaying with a tube-style device, it's unlikely that she would have experienced the forces necessary to knock her unconscious.

The GriGri is a great device. However, playing devil's advocate against proper belay technique without knowledge of how the device fails in "hands off mode" is a complete disservice to those reading.

An interesting and scary scenario occurred last week, so I should share.

Device: Trango Cinch (green)
Rope: 9.6ish Edelweiss
Gloves= YES!
Climb: Steep 5.12 at Tensleep
Experience: Belayer 15yrs, Climber 6 years. Big Wall, Alpine and lots of trad/sport/ice/mixed cragging. Been using the Cinch since Trango developed it.

Leader climbs to crux steep roof bulge and took a fall, successfully stopped. Leader pulled back up the rope to the top draw to rest and view the moves. Belayer was standing on sloping ground and sat back on rope to hold the leader while she rested. Leader quickly begins climbing without announcing to belayer. Belayer stumbles backward a step, while trying to unlock the device, an issue with the Cinch- locking very hard on falls and requiring force to reopen the cam. Within one second, climber is falling (again unannounced). Belayer is still not stable and is wrenching on the cam to attempt to open it, which then offers no friction to the falling leader. Leader falls 3 bolts through mid-air before belayer stops fall with gloved brakehand, which remained on the rope throughout this process.
After the incident, belayer realizes he had been blocking the cam with his brake hand during clipping feedouts- versus the manufacturer recommended pointer finger/thumb pinch in the pivot hole. It is now clear that any deviation from this method, even for less than 1 second can be lethal. I watched a belayer drop a climber in the same manner with the Cinch last year, and I know GriGris have the same issues with cam blockage during falls. For the Cinch, the "pivot hole pinch" is the only way that the device can lock during a feed. Any other grip is beyond risky that the belayer will lock up and hang on harder, keeping the cam open until the leader goes to ground. In my scenario, the climber shares responsibility for not using good communication with the belayer.

I still have a lot of trust in the device, but the details matter. FOLLOW TRANGO's INSTRUCTIONS.
youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ik…

jhump wrote: In my scenario, the climber shares responsibility for not using good communication with the belayer.

Why is that? It sounds like you are implying that the climber should let the belayer know when they are about to fall. Is that what you are trying to imply? If not, then I don't understand what you are implying / please clarify and ignore the rest of this below.

If that is what you are implying, I don't know how you would expect that. If the climber is able to announce that they are about to fall, then they are not falling they are letting go. The belayer needs to be ready to catch a fall at any second because the climber doesn't know when they will fall either. The climbers goal is to not fall. So they should never have insight on a fall unless they are just letting go of the rock or if there is a crux section that tends to make the climber pop off. A "fall" only happens when the climbers foot or hand pops off a hold, a hold breaks, or if they have hit there physical limit and pump off. By the time the climber can communicate that they are falling, the belayer should have already caught them.