Leaver Biners @ chains

And on the note of Fixe hardware, has anyone else seen some of Fixe's new anchor setups? They have to be the stupidest f*cking things I have every seen. They take what would be a redundant anchor with two bolts and then link the chains together into a single link thus forcing the integrity of the anchor to rely on a single link. Yes, the linking ring is huge and strong, but that doesn't change the fact that you are relying on ONE piece of gear. And then Fixe states that this is "the safest anchor available."

fixeusa.com/v_anchor_draco.htm

fixeusa.com/traditional_anc…

J. Albers wrote:And on the note of Fixe hardware, has anyone else seen some of Fixe's new anchor setups? They have to be the stupidest f*cking things I have every seen. They take what would be a redundant anchor with two bolts and then link the chains together into a single link thus forcing the integrity of the anchor to rely on a single link. Yes, the linking ring is huge and strong, but that doesn't change the fact that you are relying on ONE piece of gear. And then Fixe states that this is "the safest anchor available." fixeusa.com/v_anchor_draco.htm fixeusa.com/traditional_anc…

Yeah, I won't lie, I was looking at those the other day thinking "adding two biners to one link doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't be comfortable rapping off of one link".

I'm sure all is well when they're new but add ten years of use and people top roping off that single link in the sandy desert and a lot can change.

J. Albers wrote:And on the note of Fixe hardware, has anyone else seen some of Fixe's new anchor setups? They have to be the stupidest f*cking things I have every seen. They take what would be a redundant anchor with two bolts and then link the chains together into a single link thus forcing the integrity of the anchor to rely on a single link. Yes, the linking ring is huge and strong, but that doesn't change the fact that you are relying on ONE piece of gear. And then Fixe states that this is "the safest anchor available."

one piece of gear is fine if it's massive. i can't tell you how many times i've set up an anchor from one massive tree. and most of the time i use just one rope, with one belay device, and one harness, and one belay carabiner.

the ring is for rappels, which are typically body weight only. even if you rappel like a maniac and take 10' deadfalls on to your rappel device, you can't generate more than 600 pounds. i've measured it personally. that huge ring is more than sufficient for its purpose.

Eric Ruljancich wrote:I'm working on something that will hopefully be a compromise between the two, but it's still in development.

hopefully it will have a laser mounted on it to prevent theft! :)

Pernell wrote: Dude...don't you know that MP is "the" consensus! What we got here is a Prisoner's dilemma and Arpaio is the one that should have the pink suit on...his stealing biners from Guadalupe all the time.

do i detect sarcasm? :)

pernell emailed me earlier asking when MP became "the consensus". fair question. i figured i'd post up my thoughts in case anyone else had the same thoughts as pernell in regards to my post.

my response to pernell follows:

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hey pernell,

i see what you're saying. i would say that MP is part of the consensus.

i'm also extremely familiar with the locals here (by that i mean tucson climbers). i spend >150 full days out climbing per year - so i've met most of the locals.

with regards to the anchors that EFR has started putting up, most folks really like them. actually, i haven't found any local who dislikes them, much less removes the biners for ethical reasons.

so that's the thought behind my statement. perhaps i should have clarified that some more.

regards,

geir

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[EDIT] further evidence that the community is supportive of EFR's efforts here is that he had over 100 old biners donated to him by members of the community here to put in more of these anchors.

hope that clarifies what i meant when i referred to "the consensus" and these particular anchors. of course, if anyone has a different point of view regarding them, feel free to post up.

hey folks just thought id drop in and say hello. It was flattering to have an entire forum dedicated to hating on me for a while (complete with pictures!). Im not appologizing but i wanted to clarify. I have "stolen" a total of about 4 'biners in my life. I have been climbing for about 10 years. This averages out to about one 'biner every two years or so. Don't worry though i still hate myself. As for removing other hardware, i will and have removed a lot of old tat and replaced many old and outdated bolts. Im sorry that my "ethical rants" are overbearing for some of you. I just want to leave things as close to the way they were as possible... Im psyched for my pink jumpsuit though!

How is taking biners off of chains different than taking a booty cam or nut when you find one??

I have left biners on anchors to rap from them but also snagged biners off of chains for future bail biners. I'm sure that people have come across some of my bail biners on routes and taken them. I most recently left a caribiner off of a bolt to bail from the anchor on a multi pitch route because there were no chains. I know this is different from a single pitch route with chains and biners but someone owns that biner I left there for sure. When I come across a piece of gear that is fixed, yes fixed even means biners at the chains, then I do my best to snag it. Don't hate on Clay everyone I know some of you have done this in the past.

Clay, don't try to justify your beliefs to everyone because you are not a jerk. Everyone else, if you don't want your biners stolen from chains then DON'T LEAVE THEM THERE!!! Rap from the links.

the jerk-calling was in response to people who understand that these leaver biners are purposefully left on the anchors as part of the route setup by the FA, yet still take them anyway. if you understand that the FA intentionally left biners on them for convenience, much like a chain draw is convenient, and you STILL take them, then you are stealing.

anyone can make a mistake and take a biner that they think is booty. while this may be annoying to the people who put them there, i don't think anyone will hate you for it so long as you stop taking them once you realize what you are doing. anyone who knows the biners are supposed to stay with the anchor and takes them anyway is just a complete ass. this is why, clay, we were all "hating on" you. you said you were going to continue taking them even though you knew the FA intended the biners to stay there.

also, matt, there is a difference between bail biners attached to single bolts and a pair of biners left at chains. i have bootied plenty of gear myself that was obviously used to bail. however, if you still believe that taking pairs of biners left on chains is OK after reading this thread...then all i have to say is wow, there's always some asshole who has to ruin it for everyone else.

matt - there is a local thing here that you might not be aware of. the carabiners we're talking about are intended to be part of the anchors to eliminate the necessity for untying at the top of the climb (see the photo - in this case the setup is being used for a rappel, but you'll get the idea). removing them causes ropes to get twisted as hell. the locals in tucson are familiar with these anchors, we simply don't want to see the carabiners "bootied" from them.

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Bob.

Are you joking? That doesn't make any sense at all. None. Zero.

You are talking about an ANCHOR. How does leaving biners on the anchor "change the experience"? As long as the biners aren't worn through, any two bottom-of-the-bag biners are fine to lower off.

I know from experience that biners are easier and cheaper to replace than chains. I can't fathom why you wouldn't want to lower off of biners in decent shape. If they are dangerously worn- replace them. Why is this so hard to understand?

Would you have to have the FAs permission to replace a worn chain?!

Your post is the most extreme example of faux-traditude I've ever seen. You've invented a totally new "ethical dilemma" by arguing in favor of a practice that is inherently more dangerous and unnecessary (untying and rethreading).

Geez, I expect this kind of response from the "ALWAYS RAP!!!" crowd, but... wow.

merry christmas

Not going to lie, I only read the first 2 pages of this thread. I just wanted to say thanks to Geir and Eric for building the anchors with the leave it biners at the chains. It makes for quick easy and safe rapping. I have donated a few and I will continue to donate to the cause and replace the biners I feel need it as I climb.

Thanks again guys.

For those stealing the biners you suck.

Anyways fixed gear is fixed gear. It has nothing to do with the first ascenscionists. If the fa party left a piece of fixed gear, ie a cam, you would take it obviously. I see a biner left on a fixed anchor and o take it because it is "bail stuff" that I can use in the future. The fa should have prepared better and not have left buners in their drilled shit.

matt - you clearly know NOTHING about climbing. That answer makes no sense. Why would you take the 'biners. jerk. Jeez get some respect

Well fine then clay will you are at it I'm going to steal your rack of hexes and 5 cams

Matt, look at this photo:
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If you rap off just the quicklinks, you are going to kink the shit out of your rope! Moreover, anyone unfortunate enough to climb the route after you steal part of this anchor is also going to end up with a kinked rope, unless they replace the portion of the anchor you stole.

These 'biners are part of the anchor. These are not bail 'biners, they are anchor 'biners.

Taking them is no different than taking fixed chain, or fixed quicklinks, etc. It is stealing. Continue to justify it to yourself as much as you want. It is still stealing, and it is still wrong.

Will Anglin wrote:

that's me on the right, back when i was blaque.

anyway it looks like it's only a couple of fools who do not live in this state who want to continue taking the biners. i think at this point we can safely ignore them.

we're just going around in circles at this point. if you took anchor biners in the past and didn't realize what you were doing then whoops, you made a mistake just like anyone can. anyone who continues taking anchor biners knowing that they are meant to stay there is a thief. these are the facts.

Will Anglin wrote:

I thought that was EFR and Jimbo from back in the day.

Since we are taking any biner left on a route, let's go "booty" all the biners at the gym. They are not there for a reason and it's not stealing cause I found it there unattended.

Jon Ruland wrote:it looks like it's only a couple of fools who do not live in this state who want to continue taking the biners. i think at this point we can safely ignore them. we're just going around in circles at this point.

agreed.

pernell emailed me and suggested that we add a note about the leaver biners on the main mt lemmon page. i think it's a good idea.

Two words!