Born in Blood [Edit]

Sick work Ian, congrats. This is a rad problem. May 13, 2014

Thanks Ben! About time! Props to Steve and Chris for finding this boulder and making it possible. May 13, 2014

There are some weird competitive ego things going on in our climbing "community". From a proper start those are definitely tough problems. I would disregard any opinion he gives if I were you. Nov 25, 2014

My 2c...

I misunderstood where Dagger started. I removed it from my scorecard and added a note to my video. For the record, this is because my left hand was slightly too far up the lower arete, not because my hands were flipped. The hands flipped on the start holds is an unsustainable argument along a slippery slope. Starting on the holds the first ascentionist used is not slippery. Nor is not dabbing, etc.

I did all this because I believe that if you're going to represent that you've done something, especially if you're going to do so to push the standards of an area, try to get free gear, etc it's very important to have actually done what you say you did.

Enough about that problem.

This problem I climbed very quickly, and from a "proper" start (I was there for the FA, I know where it starts) - two quick sessions over the summer in 80+ degree weather and then two more a few months later in decent early fall weather. It had rained the day before I did it and most of toes were wet, as was the end. I even slipped off the very end once before I sent. Also, the two hardest moves I did on this problem were skipped by Ian and surely would be skipped by other "taller" (read: not dwarf-sized) climbers. Sure, it felt kinda hard but I did it quick and skipping these moves would make it easier, as would having all the holds be dry. For that reason I proposed v10, thinking it in line with the difficulty of Keymaker (I believe I could climb that if the heel hook was wet). I did not think it as hard as the v11s I have done or tried in the area, and certainly do not think it as hard as The Shield or Mandala from a proper start, which I have not climbed but most consider to be entry-level v12.

Nic's outlandish v7 isn't particularly helpful, but neither is a near-equally outlandish v12, which I think is his point. Nov 26, 2014

all you u guys need to take A cucumber and a mallet and... Nov 26, 2014

the lake is inconsistent, its as simple as that. so much is wrong with what is happening in wisco... overgrading. pushing. downgrading... Nov 26, 2014

Group hug! For the record for the guidebook grades are going to be changed to line up with the consensus. And I do think Born in Blood is one of the harder things I have done it the lake, hence my suggested grade. Maybe this is benchmark V11 here?...what are other benchmark 11's? Are some of the 11's harder? I suspect so. So my idea for the book is to have grades up to V12, the hardest 2-3 will get the 12 grade. I don't think I'm totally off base here either. Thoughts? Nov 26, 2014

No, that's not how grades work (at least not in their current form). We don't just create a bell curve for each area. If we were to do that, why stop at v12? Why not use v15? Or v20?

In the real world, there are standards and then we grade according to how difficult things are - when climbed in good conditions, with good skin, after rest days, and with good beta - compared to that standard. The standard v10 at Devil's Lake for many years has been Keymaker.

In other forums my grading has been called "old school" and it's been implied that in some ways that's ego-driven and regressive. I disagree. Sticking to standards actually is the least egotistical and most progressive thing to do: it holds you accountable to an objective standard. If we want to contribute to the progression of difficult bouldering at Devil's Lake, then we damn well better climb problems that are harder than those that have already been climbed. Slapping higher numbers on these problems and upgrading the old ones to justify doing so gives the illusion of progression but ultimately is superficial: it's not helping the area progress, at least not in a meaningful way (in terms of difficulty, that is; new high quality problems contribute to progression in a different way).

Personally I don't find this harder than Keymaker, and certainly not a full grade, especially if you can skip my crux sequence. But if you want to say it's harder than Keymaker that's fine, I won't argue; I'll chalk it up to a style thing and move on. Just don't try telling me it's a full two grades harder, especially not if you're saying so because it's on the upper end of the spectrum at the Lake and we need v12s. That's just not how grading works. Nov 26, 2014

Thank you guys, I am done with this for now. Nov 26, 2014

V4- at Boulders Nic ;)

Most of this was TL:DR, I have real climbing to do. However, I don't think there's any argument that grades are totally inconsistent at DL. I never bouldered much there but I think from this discussion and others it's obvious.

Ian, you probably need to be more conservative with your grades, or at least be humble about it until a 2nd person sends it.

And to all of you, it's the fucking internet, try real hard to to get butt hurt. If you were climbing R/X Trad I might actually give a shit. Nov 30, 2014