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Routes in Spaghetti Western Wall

Bareback S 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a
Blue Shadows S 5.8 5b 16 VI- 15 HVS 4c
Cheap Sunglasses S 5.11+ 7a 24 VIII 24 E4 6a
Cheap Whiskey T 5.10b 6a+ 19 VII- 19 E2 5b
Code of the West T 5.11d 7a 24 VIII 25 E5 6a
Cowboy Coffee S 5.11b 6c 23 VIII- 23 E3 5c
Cowboy Up S 5.10d 6b+ 21 VII+ 21 E3 5b
Demanda S 5.9+ 5c 17 VI 17 E1 5a
Hamburger Helper S 5.10d 6b+ 21 VII+ 21 E3 5b
Ned Flies a Stick S 5.10c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b
Pale Rider S 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a
Pitch Fork S 5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
Powder Monkey S 5.10c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b
Powder Monkey Extension S 5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
Reprimanda S 5.11b 6c 23 VIII- 23 E3 5c
Schadenfreude S 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a
Smart Cowboy S 5.11a 6c 22 VII+ 22 E3 5c
Soy Beefcake S 5.8 5b 16 VI- 15 HVS 4c
Today We Climb...Tomorrow We Die! S 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a
Toy Gun Show S 5.6 4c 14 V 12 S 4b
True Grit S 5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
Yosemite Sand S 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a
Type: Sport, 50 ft
FA: Josh Smith, Rick Bradshaw
Page Views: 125 total, 1/month
Shared By: Josh Smith on Mar 22, 2009
Admins: Aaron Hobson, Jason Halladay, Anthony Stout, LeeAB Brinckerhoff, Marta Reece, Drew Chojnowski

You & This Route


6 Opinions

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Description

The crux is in the middle and is quite reachy. Probably 12a if you're under 5'8' and easier than 11 if you're over 6'. Sneaky climbing right off the ground.

Location

Just left of the cave at the upstream end of the area.

Protection

4 bolts to a 2-bolt anchor

Photos

Rick Bradshaw
Los Alamos, NM
  5.11c
Rick Bradshaw   Los Alamos, NM
  5.11c
The controversy on the bolting of this route and it's neighbor Cowboy Coffee, along with the fact that they were in the morning shade, had me on both several times this summer as warmups for the SW Wall. I hadn't been on this route since Josh and I put it up, and despite the disparaging words on the bolting I found the route to be better than I remembered. I'm 5'8" and was able to work out beta that was all within reach. As with Cowboy Coffee, the bottom is tricky but with beta it is true to grade (similar difficulty to Warepig on Monster Wall). The bolting seemed perfect, course I had a say in the placements so it may be a bit style dependent. I really like both these routes and highly recommend them. Oct 1, 2010
The route was TR'd a number of times before I bolted it, and I think the bolt placements are just fine. I would also give the route one star, since I don't think it's nearly of the quality of a lot of the other routes out there, but I believe it's still fun and worth climbing.

It's unfortunate that JeremyA and Orlando feel as they do about the bolts, but that's certainly their prerogative. The value of Mountain Project is that it allows people to share opinions and beta on routes, and that includes the bad with the good, and the bad is often at least as valuable as the good. However, the web site is a community that is built off of volunteer effort and shared information. For a given route, the route developer is the smallest member of that community, but a very important one. Most of us who put up routes invest considerable energy, care, and resources into trying to do it well--I know that I do.

There is a very good reason that Guideline #1 for posting to the site is, don't be a jerk. If you keep your tone and your comments civil, specific, and constructive, then you'll benefit the entire community, including possibly educating the route developer. If you aimlessly sling crap, then everyone loses. Jul 19, 2010
Orlando  
Now unless I'm mistaken, schadenfreude loosley tranlates to "taking joy at the pain of others", or something along those lines, which could explain deliberately misplaced bolts...just kidding.
But seriously, I like the idea of changing the name to, using Jason's words,
"Hellen Kellar Had the FA"
Just a suggestion...
Cheers all. Jul 15, 2010
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.11c
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.11c
Orlando wrote:And oh yeah, what's with those Pagan hangers and why do they all hang sideways? We (yes, Jeremy and I) had to tighten down a bunch of loose bolts on this route and it's neighbor Cowboy.
I've noticed those hangers are really smooth on the back (where they contact the rock) and perhaps a bit convex. Thus, I think they are more prone to spinning. I've been using Petzl hangers with dimples that really help guard against that. Adding to the issue is the super gritty nature of the rock at UEF. The surface under the hanger grits away a bit, slowly.
I've gotten more accustomed to preparing the surface around the hold by hammering the crap out of it and brushing it before tightening down the hanger.

Thanks for contributing to route maintenance by tightening the loose hangers. Everyone benefits from that. Jul 15, 2010
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.11c
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.11c
Now this is good stuff! No one is offended here nor taking things too seriously. In the end, we all want to have fun and constructive criticism and/or suggestions like Orlando's (with specific examples) are ideal. Unlike the original comment made by Jeremy, Orlando gave concrete examples of why he felt the bolts were in the wrong locations. With suggestions like Orlando's (and DTP's), some action is a lot more likely to be taken. That's all I was getting at.

And with my comment to Jeremy of "perhaps you're not climbing the routes very well", I meant no disrespect. Granted it sounds a bit harsh but it's truthful. I've personally climbed routes where I used all the wrong holds for clipping and thought "damn, those bolts are all in the wrong places". Then, on subsequent attempts, I found better clipping stances and holds and it wasn't so bad. That's what I meant with that comment.

Josh, Rick and I have all put up enough routes and replaced enough anchors to have grown that thick skin it takes to be one to continue to do this type of work. We're all used to it---people always find something to complain about. My point here is that giving examples or taking action rather than just complaining is the higher road to take. If a bolt is in a bad location and it clearly states on this site who the FA was, contact that person and suggest a resolution (or post a comment with a suggestion.) If you feel a route needs more cleaning, clean it.

The Helen Keller analogy did make me chuckle a bit. I would have found it even more funny if it has included some examples of why it appeared Helen Keller had the FA. Jul 15, 2010
Shirtless Mike
Denver, CO
 
Shirtless Mike   Denver, CO  
 
So what I vaguely remember about this route is that some of the bolts may have been hard to clip, in particular while hanging the draws. I seem to remember the bolts protecting the crux (shown in the photo above) and the bolt above being hard to get to and clip. That said it does look like the bolt placement protects the crux very well. Apparently when I originally did the route, I didn't feel the bolting warrented a comment.

More than the bolting I remember that the route felt really reachy and hard for the grade. For me this felt more like 12a than 11c, but height is always a lame excuse...

I gave it one star because of the dirtyness (in the condition that I climbed it) and shortness of the route. I also believe I broke a few holds which is -*'s for me. Elsewhere in NM, I think this would be a 1 star route.

Part of putting up routes seems to be having thick skin, as there will always be people bitching about it in some way or another. Jul 15, 2010
Orlando  
I think Jeremy accidentally picked up the orange carafe the other morning and ended up with decaf, but come on, the Helen Keller comment was pretty funny and far less of a cheap shot than "perhaps you're not climbing the routes very well"....
I agree, though; don't take it too seriously, especially since Jeremy is a bit like the Mel Gibson of NM sport climbing (now THAT's funny AND timely). In his defense, the middle 2-3 bolts were all like 2 or 3 feet away, and mostly right, from the reachy holds in the description - you had to make dumb moves to clip the bolts, then reboot to get back on what seemed like the natural line. As Jeremy hinted, it was hard to believe that the route had been worked on TR before it was bolted, and while my climbing ability is at about the same level as his subtlety (my short ass agrees with the 12+ rating, or maybe like 14c...), if you tried to follow anything near the bolt line I think the route would be much harder. Otherwise, I think this is actually a really nice route - I imagine that the weirdness of the bolts might be part of the reason for the low star rating.
And oh yeah, what's with those Pagan hangers and why do they all hang sideways? We (yes, Jeremy and I) had to tighten down a bunch of loose bolts on this route and it's neighbor Cowboy.
Cheers. Jul 15, 2010
"Hellen Keller with a drill." Hum...not exactly a tone to inspire dialogue. I guess I'll take that comment to be worth about the $0.02 Jeremy gives it.

Thanks, Jason, for your thoughtful and reasonable responses.

For others who venture by this page or the route, I've always felt that sport climbs essentially belong to the climbing community once they're established, and have moved a number of bolts to make a route better suited to a wider group of people if it seemed reasonable. However, not every route could or should be made to suit every person, and each bears the stamp of its original author. Schadenfreude is a bit more exciting than some of the routes at Upper East Fork, but I've done it half a dozen times since it went up, and I still think it's pretty fun and safe within the normal boundaries of sport climbing. I'm solely responsible for bolt placements on that route, though Rick helped clean it and TR it with me prior to bolting. Jul 14, 2010
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.11c
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.11c
Sorry. Jeremy, I'm not trying to be condescending or cute. But really, specific examples are most helpful. Placing bolts isn't as easy as it may seem. Many considerations must be taken into account and the best rock for the bolt isn't always right inline with the climbing. This is especially true at UEF given the rock quality. Jul 12, 2010
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.11c
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.11c
JeremyA wrote:This route is HORRIBLY bolted. Needs to be fixed. How about a TR before you put the bolts in? Might put them in the correct places then. My $0.02.


I find it interesting that you've made comments about the crappy bolting on three routes that I've not heard anyone else complain about. Could it be your expectations are too high or perhaps you're not climbing the routes very well?

There's a difference between complaining and constructive criticism. Complaining is useless while constructive criticism is helpful and has a high probability of ensuring corrective action is taken. This comment is more of the former. The climbers that took the time, effort and expense to put in a route for all of us to climb are nice guys who are very interested in safety and climbers enjoying the routes.
If you can be more specific about which bolt(s) you found to be HORRIBLY placed, I'm confident the FA guys will take that into consideration. I know Josh has personally moved bolts on other routes he has put up after hearing feedback from others. He allowed me to add an additional bolt and chain to the anchor on Pegasus after I got unnecessarily concerned about the anchor. He was not offended or bothered by my suggestion as he has the utmost respect for the safety of us climbers at UEF.

Also, I'm pretty sure this line was TRed before being bolted as the majority of routes at UEF have been. Jul 12, 2010
Shirtless Mike
Denver, CO
 
Shirtless Mike   Denver, CO  
 
As Josh mentions this climb is really reach dependant. I'm 5'6" and the crux moves and the opening move felt hard. Jun 29, 2009