[Hide Comment] How can you give this route two stars John? It is totally contrived to stay to the right of the arete. Maybe you bolted it so that it feels better to stay right. Jimbo and I top roped this line 3 times each trying to convince ourselves to bolt it, but in the end it was so stupidly contrived to stay off the bigger and easier holds to the left that we didn't. Are you doing eliminates now? The route is 5.11+ if you force yourself not to use the giant holds on the arete and only use the ones in the shade? Why don't you go over to the next cliff up stream and put something that deserves two stars up? And what's up with this second trail? Dec 31, 2007

[Hide Comment] You answered your own question in sentence 3.

Your little rant has elevated the route name from mere excellence to pure poetry. I'm expecting a call from the Nobel committee any day.

Why? When you and I were looking at the line you said "no, too contrived". I said "maybe... but sometimes that can be fixed by proper bolt placement". But you're the kind of guy that once you make up your mind, it's over, no discussion. I thought, "this line looks way too nice to just take his word for it", so I went ahead.

>>> As bolted <<<... I had more pure FUN climbing this route than any other route in the area including your 3 star slab routes. And I didn't feel even the slightest urge to move my body around the corner to the left. But maybe that's because I'm just "so stupid" as you imply above. Hell I may give it 3 stars since MP is a 4 star system.

By the way pal, you can issue orders to me if you like, but you better gain 30 or 40 SOLID lbs if you expect me to obey. Jan 1, 2008

[Hide Comment] JBak
I think we should let the climbing community decide how many stars any of the routes here should get. All our ratings are just our opinions after all.
I think however, that you are going to be in the minority (having fun wise) when people climb our "slab" routes and your new routes.

I also disagree that you can magically make a route uncontrived by bolt placement. Either you can bail onto easier ground or you can't. The rock, not the bolt placement, determines this.
I haven't climbed all of your new route yet, and until I do I will withhold judgement.

You and Eric are both taking this way too seriously. It's a sixty foot route on a blob of rock back in canyon somewhere, it ain't the latest artificial heart.
People will climb it, or not, and make their own judgements.

I still think you should nix the new trail. One path into this area is enough.

Peace out, my brother



Jan 1, 2008

[Hide Comment] Well I didn't say it but I will climb it before I make a final judgement in order to see if what you say is true but either way my route is better than yours Jbak! And I think it is you that will need 30 or 40 pounds bucko! Heh heh heh! Jan 1, 2008

[Hide Comment] Eric pushed. I pushed back. I think we are both laughing.

Oh, and for sure our tastes in routes are different. That's a good thing. Jan 1, 2008

[Hide Comment] Eric, I need to LOSE 30 lbs to get my project at the 'mut. On that day you can give me all the orders you want.

Jim, you don't think protection can influence the line ? On trad routes I often climb a protected feature before an easier but un-protected feature. On sport routes the position of bolts can subtly change which options you evaluate and the order in which you evaluate them. At least it seems that way to me. I think Eric is aware of this concept too as shown by the 3rd sentence of his original post. Joe and I take this into account on every route we drill. It's one reason why we're so slow.

About the trail...when Joe and I first tried to follow your high trail we missed a turn where you jogged up that steep bouldery gully. So we kept contouring around and ended up level with the base of the tower. After coming down the bouldery gully twice now, I have to say I don't really like it. I think our path would be nicer once it was bedded in. But whatever.

As far as voting on stars...it would be a new experience for me to see anyone else vote on any of my routes. I don't think they are repeated very often. Partly because there are so few.

If you guys do this route before I get back to fix it, there is a double bolt about 40 feet up. Use the LEFT one ! The right one was a mistake which I STUPIDLY placed so the draw interfered with the hand-hold. When I backed the nut off to pound it in, the bolt started spinning when the nut got to those first few smashed threads. Jan 2, 2008

[Hide Comment] I didn't say the pro can't influence a line or the direction some one might take while climbing that line. Eric and I place the bolts a little left or a little right all the time, as a hint to the climber.
But if your bolts are trying to deny the obvious possibility of bailing to easier ground that's contrived. Contrived routes shouldn't, and usually don't, have as many stars as non-contrived routes. That's all I'm saying.
Now, is contrived necessarily always bad? People eliminate holds to make boulder problems harder all the time, and isn't a sport line just a big boulder problem?? Perhaps, perhaps not.
As far as the trail, as soon as you two can find it again, I'll be happy to check it out and help you build it, if it's better than ours.
People would vote on you routes all the time if you'd just start drilling routes that weren't so hard, so steep or so painful.
Most of us aren't the machochist you are.
Jan 4, 2008

[Hide Comment] Jimbo,

I thought you said that you and Eric hadn't toproped the entire route, but that you had bailed off to the side before the crux? This would probably also be possible on lead, but you would have to move back to finish. I'm not even sure that getting back on route would be easy. If this is the case, then all it means is that you can quit the route before the crux if you so desire. I also thought the crux section was real good climbing.

Anyhow I would be interested in hearing comments from you guys after you do the route. Jan 5, 2008

[Hide Comment] "Machochist"...that's either a good joke or a perfect malaprop. Either way, I'm laughing. Jan 7, 2008

[Hide Comment] There are two people (ah...three, oh no, four... um I think there's a fifth....) whom I really trust for good route recommendations. No exception for this one, which has small, medium, large, positive and not-so-positive holds..... and a section of the only type of crack I can use!

I read the earlier comments again and I am guilty of using some of the holds on the arete... but I guess it was okay because I used the holds on the face too.... Feb 9, 2008

[Hide Comment] Wing, it's okay to use holds on the arete. My left hand is around the corner at several places. My left foot at a couple of spots too.

After watching Wing and Josie and Vince get their first taste of this route today I have to admit it _looks_ pretty contrived. But that doesn't seem to be a problem when you're ON the route. All three liked it, but then they seem to like everything.

Hey and someone besides EFR put a star rating on one of my routes...amazing ! Feb 9, 2008

[Hide Comment] What do you mean by "but then they seem to like everything"? Are you implying they/we don't have exceptionally "good taste" for routes???!!!

In my case - please read my comment again. Or, I repeat -- I am such a diva I only climb routes recommended by specific people who eliminated the-not-so-good-routes for me so of course I like the good routes that I climbed. As for the routes I have not climbed, can't say I like them... Hahaha! Feb 11, 2008

[Hide Comment] I tried to do this climb as I would any other climb. If it felt right to step left I did. If it was better to stay right I did. It is still a bit contrived but not stupidly contrived. The bolts actually keep you on or just right of the arete and force you on to the east face at the crux. I did have to force myself to climb the crack corner down low but it can still be climbed using the holds on or left of the arete and it really doesn't change the climb all that much. All in all it is a fun route with good moves. Nice job! Jim and I obviously didn't think it was possible. Please accept my humble apology for any offense given. I will no longer doubt you Obiewan. EFR Feb 29, 2008

[Hide Comment] Oh sure...be the bigger man...play the "gentleman" card. Is there no level to which you will not stoop ?

Seriously, Eric my brother, you are a gentlemen. I agree that the route is contrived. It's just a matter of degree. But if you don't over-think it, and just start climbing, it's fun. It's a good-looking route too.

You spelled my name wrong...it's OLD-BE-JUAN. Mar 2, 2008

[Hide Comment] well contrived or not i really liked this route, though i don't know about the 5.11 grade. it seems unlikely that in my current state i'd be able to flash 5.11, but i came really close (fell at the last bolt on 5.8 terrain since my hands were refusing to close by that point). i did find myself escaping left a bunch to rest. i wasn't too far from the bolts when i did this, but still it wasn't quite arm's reach and it felt like the natural thing to do. though i don't think it's really possible to skip any moves this way--you'll still have to move back right to actually climb.

anyway, it's a fun route and contrived or not, aretes are awesome and i really liked this one. Oct 24, 2010