Mountain Project Logo

Routes in Forgotten Wall, Control Tower & Up The Creek Wall

A River Runs To It S 5.10c/d 6b+ 21 VII+ 21 E3 5b
Abandonement Issues T 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Aerial Combat S 5.11a/b 6c 23 VIII- 23 E3 5c
Air Break S 5.10a 6a 18 VI+ 18 E1 5a
Air Worthy S 5.12- 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a
All Washed Up T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Aretes Syndrome S 5.11+ 7a 24 VIII 24 E4 6a
Black Water T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Blood Book T 5.10- 6a 18 VI+ 18 E1 5a
Candy Man S 5.11- 6c 22 VIII+ 22 E3 5c
Cat On A Hot Thin Roof S 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a
Collateral Damage S 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Don't Grab Here T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Eskimo Roll S 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Explorers T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Finders Keepers S 5.10c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b
Fleuger Chimney T 5.8- 5b 16 VI- 14 VS 4c
Flight Line 1 T 5.10- 6a 18 VI+ 18 E1 5a
Flight Line 2 S 5.10+ 6b+ 21 VII+ 20 E3 5b
Flight Line 3 T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Flight Stimulator T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Forget Me Not T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Here's my Paddle! S 5.9- 5c 17 VI 16 HVS 4c
Jibber Jabber S 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Losers Weepers S 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Napolean Complex S 5.10c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b
No Tooth Or Consequences S 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Non-nuclear Arms S 5.11+ 7a 24 VIII 24 E4 6a
Old and Creeky S 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Omission Statement S 5.10b/c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b
Parting Shot S 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a
Polar Bear Club S 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a
Running With The Bulls S 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Skybox S 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Sundance S 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Sweetie Don't Bite S 5.11- 6c 22 VIII+ 22 E3 5c
Trailing Edge T 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a
Tributary T 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Tryptophandemonium S 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c
Use It Or Lose It S 5.11- 6c 22 VIII+ 22 E3 5c
Virgin's Airline S 5.10b 6a+ 19 VII- 19 E2 5b
Watershed S 5.10 6b 20 VII- 19 E2 5b
Where's My Paddle S 5.11c/d 7a 24 VIII 25 E4 6a
Wreckless Abandon T 5.10+ 6b+ 21 VII+ 20 E3 5b
Order Wrong? Sort Routes
Type: Sport, 60 ft
FA: JBaker, JShiefman, Dec 2007
Page Views: 1,163 total · 9/month
Shared By: jbak . on Dec 30, 2007
Admins: Luke Bertelsen, JJ Schlick, Greg Opland

You & This Route

6 Opinions

Your To-Do List:

Add To-Do · View List

Your Star Rating:

     Clear Rating

Your Difficulty Rating:

-none- Change

Your Ticks:

Add New Tick


On the NE Face of the Control Tower, two routes require you to scramble up crap rock to a ledge. Sundance is the LEFT route and climbs just right of the striking arete, using the big flake (with finger locks) for the first 20 feet. Airworthy is the RIGHT-hand route on the NE Face. Both routes have anchors, but for full value on Sundance, go to the (higher) Airworthy anchors, then use the Sundance anchor as a directional to clean the route.

Both of these routes go into the shade before 11 am.


NE Face of the Control Tower. Scramble to ledge, follow left-hand bolt line to highest anchor.


Bolts and chains.


1Eric Rhicard
1Eric Rhicard   Tucson
How can you give this route two stars John? It is totally contrived to stay to the right of the arete. Maybe you bolted it so that it feels better to stay right. Jimbo and I top roped this line 3 times each trying to convince ourselves to bolt it, but in the end it was so stupidly contrived to stay off the bigger and easier holds to the left that we didn't. Are you doing eliminates now? The route is 5.11+ if you force yourself not to use the giant holds on the arete and only use the ones in the shade? Why don't you go over to the next cliff up stream and put something that deserves two stars up? And what's up with this second trail? Dec 31, 2007
jbak .
jbak .   tucson,az
You answered your own question in sentence 3.

Your little rant has elevated the route name from mere excellence to pure poetry. I'm expecting a call from the Nobel committee any day.

Why? When you and I were looking at the line you said "no, too contrived". I said "maybe... but sometimes that can be fixed by proper bolt placement". But you're the kind of guy that once you make up your mind, it's over, no discussion. I thought, "this line looks way too nice to just take his word for it", so I went ahead.

>>> As bolted <<<... I had more pure FUN climbing this route than any other route in the area including your 3 star slab routes. And I didn't feel even the slightest urge to move my body around the corner to the left. But maybe that's because I'm just "so stupid" as you imply above. Hell I may give it 3 stars since MP is a 4 star system.

By the way pal, you can issue orders to me if you like, but you better gain 30 or 40 SOLID lbs if you expect me to obey. Jan 1, 2008
I think we should let the climbing community decide how many stars any of the routes here should get. All our ratings are just our opinions after all.
I think however, that you are going to be in the minority (having fun wise) when people climb our "slab" routes and your new routes.

I also disagree that you can magically make a route uncontrived by bolt placement. Either you can bail onto easier ground or you can't. The rock, not the bolt placement, determines this.
I haven't climbed all of your new route yet, and until I do I will withhold judgement.

You and Eric are both taking this way too seriously. It's a sixty foot route on a blob of rock back in canyon somewhere, it ain't the latest artificial heart.
People will climb it, or not, and make their own judgements.

I still think you should nix the new trail. One path into this area is enough.

Peace out, my brother

Jan 1, 2008
1Eric Rhicard
1Eric Rhicard   Tucson
Well I didn't say it but I will climb it before I make a final judgement in order to see if what you say is true but either way my route is better than yours Jbak! And I think it is you that will need 30 or 40 pounds bucko! Heh heh heh! Jan 1, 2008
jbak .
jbak .   tucson,az
Eric pushed. I pushed back. I think we are both laughing.

Oh, and for sure our tastes in routes are different. That's a good thing. Jan 1, 2008
jbak .
jbak .   tucson,az
Eric, I need to LOSE 30 lbs to get my project at the 'mut. On that day you can give me all the orders you want.

Jim, you don't think protection can influence the line ? On trad routes I often climb a protected feature before an easier but un-protected feature. On sport routes the position of bolts can subtly change which options you evaluate and the order in which you evaluate them. At least it seems that way to me. I think Eric is aware of this concept too as shown by the 3rd sentence of his original post. Joe and I take this into account on every route we drill. It's one reason why we're so slow.

About the trail...when Joe and I first tried to follow your high trail we missed a turn where you jogged up that steep bouldery gully. So we kept contouring around and ended up level with the base of the tower. After coming down the bouldery gully twice now, I have to say I don't really like it. I think our path would be nicer once it was bedded in. But whatever.

As far as voting on would be a new experience for me to see anyone else vote on any of my routes. I don't think they are repeated very often. Partly because there are so few.

If you guys do this route before I get back to fix it, there is a double bolt about 40 feet up. Use the LEFT one ! The right one was a mistake which I STUPIDLY placed so the draw interfered with the hand-hold. When I backed the nut off to pound it in, the bolt started spinning when the nut got to those first few smashed threads. Jan 2, 2008
I didn't say the pro can't influence a line or the direction some one might take while climbing that line. Eric and I place the bolts a little left or a little right all the time, as a hint to the climber.
But if your bolts are trying to deny the obvious possibility of bailing to easier ground that's contrived. Contrived routes shouldn't, and usually don't, have as many stars as non-contrived routes. That's all I'm saying.
Now, is contrived necessarily always bad? People eliminate holds to make boulder problems harder all the time, and isn't a sport line just a big boulder problem?? Perhaps, perhaps not.
As far as the trail, as soon as you two can find it again, I'll be happy to check it out and help you build it, if it's better than ours.
People would vote on you routes all the time if you'd just start drilling routes that weren't so hard, so steep or so painful.
Most of us aren't the machochist you are.
Jan 4, 2008

I thought you said that you and Eric hadn't toproped the entire route, but that you had bailed off to the side before the crux? This would probably also be possible on lead, but you would have to move back to finish. I'm not even sure that getting back on route would be easy. If this is the case, then all it means is that you can quit the route before the crux if you so desire. I also thought the crux section was real good climbing.

Anyhow I would be interested in hearing comments from you guys after you do the route. Jan 5, 2008
jbak .
jbak .   tucson,az
"Machochist"...that's either a good joke or a perfect malaprop. Either way, I'm laughing. Jan 7, 2008
There are two people (ah...three, oh no, four... um I think there's a fifth....) whom I really trust for good route recommendations. No exception for this one, which has small, medium, large, positive and not-so-positive holds..... and a section of the only type of crack I can use!

I read the earlier comments again and I am guilty of using some of the holds on the arete... but I guess it was okay because I used the holds on the face too.... Feb 9, 2008
jbak .
jbak .   tucson,az
Wing, it's okay to use holds on the arete. My left hand is around the corner at several places. My left foot at a couple of spots too.

After watching Wing and Josie and Vince get their first taste of this route today I have to admit it _looks_ pretty contrived. But that doesn't seem to be a problem when you're ON the route. All three liked it, but then they seem to like everything.

Hey and someone besides EFR put a star rating on one of my routes...amazing ! Feb 9, 2008
What do you mean by "but then they seem to like everything"? Are you implying they/we don't have exceptionally "good taste" for routes???!!!

In my case - please read my comment again. Or, I repeat -- I am such a diva I only climb routes recommended by specific people who eliminated the-not-so-good-routes for me so of course I like the good routes that I climbed. As for the routes I have not climbed, can't say I like them... Hahaha! Feb 11, 2008
1Eric Rhicard
1Eric Rhicard   Tucson
I tried to do this climb as I would any other climb. If it felt right to step left I did. If it was better to stay right I did. It is still a bit contrived but not stupidly contrived. The bolts actually keep you on or just right of the arete and force you on to the east face at the crux. I did have to force myself to climb the crack corner down low but it can still be climbed using the holds on or left of the arete and it really doesn't change the climb all that much. All in all it is a fun route with good moves. Nice job! Jim and I obviously didn't think it was possible. Please accept my humble apology for any offense given. I will no longer doubt you Obiewan. EFR Feb 29, 2008
jbak .
jbak .   tucson,az
Oh the bigger the "gentleman" card. Is there no level to which you will not stoop ?

Seriously, Eric my brother, you are a gentlemen. I agree that the route is contrived. It's just a matter of degree. But if you don't over-think it, and just start climbing, it's fun. It's a good-looking route too.

You spelled my name's OLD-BE-JUAN. Mar 2, 2008
Jon Ruland
Tucson, AZ
Jon Ruland   Tucson, AZ
well contrived or not i really liked this route, though i don't know about the 5.11 grade. it seems unlikely that in my current state i'd be able to flash 5.11, but i came really close (fell at the last bolt on 5.8 terrain since my hands were refusing to close by that point). i did find myself escaping left a bunch to rest. i wasn't too far from the bolts when i did this, but still it wasn't quite arm's reach and it felt like the natural thing to do. though i don't think it's really possible to skip any moves this way--you'll still have to move back right to actually climb.

anyway, it's a fun route and contrived or not, aretes are awesome and i really liked this one. Oct 24, 2010

More About Sundance