Type: Sport, 50 ft
FA: unknown, probably 1980s
Page Views: 160 total · 1/month
Shared By: Tony B on Nov 20, 2007
Admins: Leo Paik, John McNamee, Frances Fierst, Monty, Monomaniac

You & This Route

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Access Issue: Seasonal Closure - 2018 Update Details


This has a good bit of climbing on good rock, but the shallow slopers got the best of me in the heat a few times. Save this one for cooler temps. While there are a few 'hard' moves on this climb, there is really only one crux at the second to last bolt. There is a technical move near the first bolt, then the insecure crux.


This is the second from the rightmost sport climb on the Overhanging Wall.


6 bolts to an anchor.


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Elijah Flenner
Fort Collins, CO
Elijah Flenner   Fort Collins, CO
This is currently not the rightmost route on the Overhung Wall; it is the second from the right. There is a hard move at the start, and a stick clip is very useful. Nov 27, 2010
Mark Rolofson  
This route is not 5.12a and was never rated that until Tony Bubb posted it on this website. Originally it was documented as .12d in a "Rock & Ice" Front Range Climbing Guide. After climbing the route, I rated it 5.12c in my "1993 Boulder Sport Climbers Guide". After returning to it last fall, I am still calling it that. It is quite hard at the 1st bolt & also past the 4th & 5th bolt. Feb 18, 2014
Tony B
Around Boulder, CO
Tony B   Around Boulder, CO
Ha. Well, in turn, I never never rated this route 12a until Mark Rolofson posted it on this website. I put on the website as "12-", as in: "the easier side of 12", but not necessarily 12a. I am not generally a 12+ leader, so I figured it to the bottom side of 12s.
Hopefully you didn't take offense to me having an opinion, regardless. Feb 18, 2014
Mark Rolofson  
Tony, your interpretation of .12- is new & strange to me. After 43 years of climbing, I have always thought that .12a & .12- were exactly the same rating. 5.12 & .12b/c are the same rating. 5.12d & .12+ are the same rating. I think this climb is at least 5.12 or .12b/c. Aug 13, 2015
Tony B
Around Boulder, CO
Tony B   Around Boulder, CO
That system was used in other areas and guides instead of letters, for as long as you and I have been climbing and longer. In fact, it predates the use of letters in grades, as you should know after 43 years.
I.e. 5.9-, 5.9, 5.9+. Or i.e. 12-, 12, 12+ instead of 12a,b,c,d....
It is less specific in that case, subdivided into 3 grades instead of 4.

On THIS SITE, 12- is between 12a and 12b, and 12+ is between 12c and 12d, more or less in line with how I use it. This site is what is relevant here. I don't generally see fit to subdivide the 5.12 grade, since I am an onsight climber with 5.12 as my very upper end, the difference between 12a and 12b might be tough for me to tell.

I rated it, for all whatever, to be 12a/b on your scale. Consensus is 12b/c.
WTF is the difference worth arguing about? A single letter grade? Or a letter grade and a half if you insist that it is absolutely 12c?

Do we have to discuss, in detail, every single grade we disagree on in the comments section? It should be OK if people don't agree with you 100%. If their ratings are grossly out of line, it will show. Aug 13, 2015