Type: Sport
FA: Luke Laeser
Page Views: 5,486 total · 36/month
Shared By: Anthony Stout on Aug 9, 2006
Admins: Jason Halladay, Anthony Stout, LeeAB Brinckerhoff, Marta Reece, Drew Chojnowski

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Description

Very good route! A difficult start through steep terrain leads to a foot-intensive "slabby" middle section. Around the sixth bolt look for a no-hands rest before the final tricky roof. Bust through the tricky final roof making another couple of moves to the chain anchors.

(On 8/7/2013, the chalky plate below the final roof was apparently removed by someone, not me, making the last clip a little bit different -- JH )

Warning: Not a good warm up... Ha, but the only one we could find when the rain was coming down.

Location

See picture. The route is at the right side of the crag.

Protection

8 bolts to 2 bolt anchor.

Photos

Wa3lt
 
Wa3lt  
 
The FA was by Luke Laeser Nov 26, 2006
Matthew NM
  5.11c
Matthew NM  
  5.11c
would be .11c in rifle Jul 2, 2007
Scott Beguin
Santa Fe, NM
  5.12a
Scott Beguin   Santa Fe, NM
  5.12a
The FA party also included Peter Gram. This was the first bolted line at The Dungeon. Aug 30, 2007
LeeAB Brinckerhoff
ABQ, NM
 
LeeAB Brinckerhoff   ABQ, NM  
 
I don't know what it would be graded at Rifle but I do know that Matthew NM had this ruthlessly wired and as anyone knows once you've done a route a bunch it is easier.

That being said areas are different and Rifle is very beta intensive. Also grades at Rifle are based on red-point difficulty which is not always the case at all areas and as such involve using perfect beta on every move to be climbed at the stated grade. This is the biggest reason that untill this last year the hardest on-sights at Rifle were "only" 5.13c as opposed to multiple climbers knoking off 5.14b's first go elsewhere in the world. Jan 13, 2009
George Perkins
The Dungeon, NM
  5.11d
George Perkins   The Dungeon, NM
  5.11d
Moat Jump is generally regarded as the best warm-up here, once familiar with it.

Many folks stickclip the 2nd bolt, as it's difficult climbing passing the sort of low 1st bolt and you don't want to blow the 2nd clip. When climbed in this style, the technical crux is essentially toproped (not that there's anything wrong with that, but it may affect one's perception of the rating).

Step right after clipping the 4th bolt to stay on route (a harder variation goes to a bolt up and left and links into Loose Cannon).

I don't know about the grade. But this climb is really cool and worth working on, even if you've never tried a 5.12 before, and it gets easier as you learn the beta.
[edited] Jan 13, 2009
LeeAB Brinckerhoff
ABQ, NM
 
LeeAB Brinckerhoff   ABQ, NM  
 
As anything gets easier as you work it.

An acquaintance of mine once said,

"I don't really climb that hard, though I may do a 5.13 or 5.13+ every year, it is not till I've spent several months learning it down to 5.9" Jan 13, 2009
Dave Wachter
  5.12a
Dave Wachter  
  5.12a
I was just on the route today (had climbed it a couple of years ago, so it wasn't fresh in my mind til now), and I have to say that if it were on the golf wall in Durango, it would probably clock in at 5.11+. However, this is New Mexico, which (aside from perhaps El Rito) has ratings that seem to be about average among places I've climbed. This route would get 5.12a at Palomas, White Rock, Socorro, and Datil, which I think are respectable yardsticks for NM (and most places in the U.S.). It's silly that this site gives the climb a rating of "consensus: 5.11d," when 7 of 8 people who rated it gave it 12a. I think that the median grade is more appropriate than a skewed mean when you're trying determine a composite rating (and I should point out that the "consensus" process is not operating at all in this site's rating system). Apr 26, 2009
Dave Wachter
  5.12a
Dave Wachter  
  5.12a
Hey, wait a second! Seems like my 12a rating (just added) must've pushed the "consensus" up a notch. Now I can drink my beer in peace. Apr 27, 2009
Robin
Albuquerque, NM
  5.12a
Robin   Albuquerque, NM
  5.12a
Well for me I consider this to be a 5.12a. That is only somewhat influenced by the fact that this is the first 5.12 I have ever done. But as Dave mentioned, I think it is approximately as hard as many 5.12a's around the state.

Either way you grade it, it is a wonderful and fun route. Well worth a climb or two. (or in my case 5 weekends of working it into submission) Apr 28, 2009
J. Albers
Colorado
  5.12-
J. Albers   Colorado
  5.12-
This route is 5.12- (a/b, whatever), and it would be at any crag I have climbed at in Colorado, Wyoming, New Hampshire, California etc.
Maybe more importantly, this is an absolutely beautiful and fun route to do. Always been my favorite 5.12 at the Dungeon. Jul 11, 2009
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.12a
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.12a
We discovered a "fixed" draw (nylon draw with screw link attachment) on the second bolt of this route recently. Because it's very common practice for most to stick clip the second bolt, and the fixed draw hindered that, we moved this fixed draw down to the first bolt.

Fixed draws don't bother me but I suspect it won't last on the route for long because the route's easy to clean, sees a lot of traffic and one of the still-active members of the FA party isn't a big fan of fixed draws. Mar 27, 2012
J. Albers
Colorado
  5.12-
J. Albers   Colorado
  5.12-
Re: the fixed draw

Jason,

I'm not a local anymore, so obviously my opinion does not hold much weight, but I think you might want to consider talking with other locals and then taking down the fixed draw (leaving it at the base of the route with a note is probably the right thing to do). IMHO, it would be a real shame to let fixed draws start to creep onto the routes at the Dungeon. As you mention, the ethic at the Dungeon has always been that you can stick clip the first few draws if you are unsure of your ability to safely clip the first few bolts. With the exception of the routes like Death Drives that go through the final roof, everything there is super easy to clean, so that is not an issue either.

That is such a beautiful little canyon and it would really make the place look messy if the whole cliff was covered in slings (not to mention that other user groups do use that trail and may not be so keen on the sight of slings hanging from the cliff).

Cheers. Mar 27, 2012
J. Albers
Colorado
  5.12-
J. Albers   Colorado
  5.12-
David,

Thanks for your rather sarcastic response, your eye rolling is duly noted.

To address your points (which by the way, I do think have some validity). This is a bit of a slippery slope argument, but here goes. As crags age, the locals, and in particular, the young locals, change from time to time. With that thought in mind, I think that when new folks start climbing at the Dungeon (or any area), it is helpful to "see" what the local ethic is. In this case, keeping fixed draws to an absolute minimum helps these new folks understand that the precedent at the Dungeon is minimal fixed gear. Without this standard (enter slippery slope), I can foresee a day when it is not just one fixed draw for "cleaning", but a whole cliff of ugly tat for convenience.

Now, as you say, its not like you can't see chalk all over the place and indeed there are chains at the lowering stations. However, I really do think that there is a BIG aesthetic difference between the couple of chains tucked away up under the roof and at the tops of the cliff versus 40-50 fixed draws all across the face. As far as cleaning is concerned, there is absolutely no good reason why Moat Jump can't be cleaned while lowering or rappelling...if you have trouble with this, you should have someone competent show you how to do it. And bailing? C'mon now, the Dungeon always has folks around that would be willing to help you get your draw back if you can't finish the route. I used to climb at the Dungeon virtually every day after work and on most weekends and there was always somebody there that would have been willing to get a draw down. Besides, from Jason's description, it is clear that this was not a draw left up because someone couldn't finish the route (it had a screwlink on the bolt end), so it was clearly there out of pure laziness....and that my friend, is a poor reason to leave fixed hardware. Mar 27, 2012
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.12a
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.12a
Whoah nelly! Good stuff y'all. As I said, fixed draws don't bother me greatly and make sense when they facilitate cleaning or the clip is super difficult. Neither of which are the case for bolt 2 on Moat Jump. It's an easy clean and there's a wrap-around handle-bar jug just left of the bolt.

Sahalie's "all or nothing" suggestion isn't practical either, IMO. If that were the case there'd be chains/draws all over crags if the crag had one route that was difficult to clean and really benefited from a fixed draw or two. Crags with ridiculous amounts of fixed draws do bug me a bit.

My point really was, the draw did make it more difficult to do what most regular climbers of that route do--stick clip that bolt (with the rope already in the stick-clipped draw.) It is appreciably more difficult to clip a rope into a free-hanging draw that's 12 feet off the ground using a natural, real stick. And while I can't argue that having it there did make things safer, the safest bet is to stick-clip the bolt.

I moved it down because A.) it was in the way and B.) I assumed the owner would be back soon and realize, after seeing it moved, that it's not likely to stick around. I didn't know who placed it and I didn't want to "steal" it. Moving it down did help in that stick clipping B2 is easier. I'm not making any decisions as to what's "best", just making a public FYI.

And, no, I don't think it's hypocritical at all for people to be discussing ethics in a temporarily-closed area. Mar 28, 2012
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.12a
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.12a
David, I find I often, well, sometimes, I appreciate the points you make on this site but really dislike the condescending and insulting tone you frequently employ. This can be a good, productive discussion without condescension. Locals can, and do, successfully put a rope through a hanging draw. I certainly know how to do it so I don't need to search this site.
If safety concerns are the primary concern, I contend it is 100% safer to stick clip the bolt before starting up rather than having a fixed draw there. The fixed draw would make more sense if it were a hard, difficult clip. But it's not. Mar 28, 2012
Jason Halladay
Los Alamos, NM
  5.12a
Jason Halladay   Los Alamos, NM  
  5.12a
Thank you David. Since I'm not in the firmly anti-fixed draws camp, I have little else to say on this topic. If the fixed draw gets moved back to the second bolt, I'm not going to move it again and I'll work around it, stick it or rodeo clip it.

I'm not policing the area and my opinion holds the same value as anyone else's. I spoke, in person, this morning to the climber that installed it. I have no qualms about his intent--it's purely good-natured.

To address the topic of why some fixed draws are considered OK while others are considered less OK, I think J. Albers did a pretty good job in his earlier post here.
J. Albers wrote:To address your points (which by the way, I do think have some validity). This is a bit of a slippery slope argument, but here goes. As crags age, the locals, and in particular, the young locals, change from time to time. With that thought in mind, I think that when new folks start climbing at the Dungeon (or any area), it is helpful to "see" what the local ethic is. In this case, keeping fixed draws to an absolute minimum helps these new folks understand that the precedent at the Dungeon is minimal fixed gear. Without this standard (enter slippery slope), I can foresee a day when it is not just one fixed draw for "cleaning", but a whole cliff of ugly tat for convenience. Now, as you say, its not like you can't see chalk all over the place and indeed there are chains at the lowering stations. However, I really do think that there is a BIG aesthetic difference between the couple of chains tucked away up under the roof and at the tops of the cliff versus 40-50 fixed draws all across the face. As far as cleaning is concerned, there is absolutely no good reason why Moat Jump can't be cleaned while lowering or rappelling...if you have trouble with this, you should have someone competent show you how to do it. And bailing? C'mon now, the Dungeon always has folks around that would be willing to help you get your draw back if you can't finish the route. I used to climb at the Dungeon virtually every day after work and on most weekends and there was always somebody there that would have been willing to get a draw down. Besides, from Jason's description, it is clear that this was not a draw left up because someone couldn't finish the route (it had a screwlink on the bolt end), so it was clearly there out of pure laziness....and that my friend, is a poor reason to leave fixed hardware.
It's certainly a large gray area, and a bit of a slippery slope, but I like to think most climbers have a pretty good feel for what is appropriate, what isn't appropriate and what is in that gray area.

My point in all of this is that after many of years of climbing at the Dungeon I have the impression that fixed draws on bolts other than the very-difficult-to-clean-roof-bolts won't last long. This isn't really the big deal it feels like it's becoming.

Mar 28, 2012
LeeAB Brinckerhoff
ABQ, NM
 
LeeAB Brinckerhoff   ABQ, NM  
 
Lead this on gear yesterday, the start and finish protect well, the middle, not so much. Jul 2, 2012
LeeAB Brinckerhoff
ABQ, NM
 
LeeAB Brinckerhoff   ABQ, NM  
 
If the fixed draw is going to be there it should be chain and a steel biner. A nylon sling with an aluminum biner gets dangerous as it wears. Jul 2, 2012