[Hide Comment] The guidebook does not give this any stars, but I think it is one of the best routes I have done, thus the three star rating. I toproped it, but can't wait until I am confident enough to try it on lead. Dec 28, 2003

[Hide Comment] be aware that the Mt. lemmon guidebook gives this route ZERO STARS...I had to list that here for the sake of non locals who don't own the book... Jul 12, 2004

[Hide Comment] Although this route may deserve a star, let's keep things in perspective. 3 stars should be reserved for classics. Think Lizard Marmalade Direct, Slippery When Wet, Voodoo Child, Arizona Flyways, Cripple Creek or Hard Day at the Orifice. These routes compare to classic routes in other areas both near and far away. Non-locals could be pretty disappointed if they choose their routes from this site. I think that this site might be missing the mark on the quality ratings. Jul 12, 2004

[Hide Comment] ahh. enter the subjective nature of rating and grading climbs. most of the juice that comes from these sites is from the participation and input that the people and their experiences give it...although this site is lacking a bit. nonetheless it still provides an excellent resource apart from the guidebooks. most of the tucson area guidebooks (at least from the relatively few routes i've done down there) do a nice job in description. however, i feel squeezing the lemmon(s) is very inexplicit in detail and sometimes accuracy. your input is my guidebook for there. keep the routes flowing! be it classic route or not, i know butterfly flats is another place i will be climbing when the time comes. Jul 12, 2004

[Hide Comment] So none of you guys noticed that you can record your ratings and stars when you post a comment? The rating shown on the page is the average of the posted ratings. Jul 12, 2004

[Hide Comment] I think my comment was missunderstood. I did not say that you shouldn't do a particular route because it wasn't assigned 3 stars, I said that this particular route probably does not deserve three stars. I certainly enjoyed Buttery Flats (as I do most routes), but would never consider it a classic on par with the highest quality routes on Mt. Lemmon. The interesting thing about this site is that most of the super-good routes have yet to be posted. When they do make it on to this site, the three star rating will carry less weight. Just an observation. Jul 13, 2004

[Hide Comment] Three stars is a rating reserved for the very best climbs on the mountain. Don't give it three stars if you haven't been on climbs of three star caliber and aren't familar with what they should entail. that's it ..plain and simple. It is a disservice to the climbing community. Think/compare/contrast before you grade a route. I pick 2 CONSENSUS three star routes for each grade and compare off of them. The reason I do it that way is because the people who have come before me, almost always, know better than I do because they have been climbing for twenty + years and have climbed everywhere and everything. When I get to that level I'll rate things based on my opinion only..however I do not presume to have reached that level of expertice and I consult the more experienced for guidance. It smacks of arrogance to toss around three stars with next to no expierence under your belt. Slippery when wet .7 , Rich and Dave route .8+, Old Man .9/ space cowboy .9+, Mean mistreater .10c/ Chimney rock .10's, I haven't climbed a THREE star .11 so I wouldn't ever rate an .11 climb with three stars....get it!! I have nothing to compare it with...good ratings come from experience in the grade...think about it before you throw it out there for all to see... Jul 13, 2004

[Hide Comment] Okay, since nobody else seems to want to correct the problem, I will. Jul 14, 2004

[Hide Comment] On a site that calculates ratings by averaging, CONSENSUS can be best acheived by people posting their own opinions. Jul 14, 2004

[Hide Comment] See the 1.5/3 next to the stars (probably lower now, thanks to this post) - that is an example of a consensus rating. Quality is subjective - nothing will ever be a three star route if nobody is willing to offer their opinion that a route is three star. Jul 14, 2004

[Hide Comment] one more and I'm done with this...The consensus rating that I am talking about does not come from you and I...As I said before, it comes from far more experienced climbers who have done it all at every grade... You can give whatever grade you want from now on without fear of reprisal because I have come to the conclusion that you don't get it..at all..read all these posts again and if you still don't get it then I'll just smile and nod my head everytime you grade something because the rating will be meaningless... and so will your opinion of climbs...if that is what you want continue the mindless ratings.... Jul 14, 2004

[Hide Comment] one more thing...as goes the quality of a three star route...a three star route should be so good that everyone recognizes it as such...the classic climbs on this mountain are not debated...no one is going to tell you that lizard marmalade direct is not a three star climb...thats what makes it three stars man... Jul 14, 2004

[Hide Comment] unlike some...i value fellow climbers' opinions whether they have 6 months or 20 years experience. rate and grade what you like and from your experience. such is the beauty of these sites. when myke komarnitsky and friends created these sites in 2000 it's purpose was to build a community with varying opinions and experience levels. so what is to say a particular routes is or isn't three stars? yeah, some routes are deemed classics for good reason. and others are very debateable. when it comes down to it, it'll always be a subjective matter and nothing more or less. Jul 14, 2004

[Hide Comment] Oh man...Opinion is one thing undermining the rating system is another...If routes are rated in a grossly dissproportionate manner the ratings are meaningless.. ..How can you argue against this?!! It is okay to put 1 star and say I freakin loved it...It is another thing entirely to give it three stars putting it on par with climbs that are exponentially better!! It makes the stars meaningless! Jul 15, 2004

[Hide Comment] i'm not arguing the ratings/gradings system by any means. i agree wholeheartedly that a ratings system has been set in place based on certain criteria established by those (first ascentionists, guidebook writers, etc) with far more experience than most of us. it's too bad they don't want to come home after quality days of climbing and write in routes (that they've probably already done hundreds of times) at tucsonclimbers.org. i also find it strange that most of the best routes on mount lemmon have yet to be posted on this site. again, this site is what the community makes of it. and if you're participating by rating/grading it how you feel it was from your subjective experience, i'll bite. climbingboulder.com is a good example of a site that has taken this whole idea and run with it (being that it has the massive climbing community to do so). Jul 18, 2004

[Hide Comment] just did this route yesterday on toprope, but it seemed to me that it was totally leadable without heading into the corner to place gear. maybe there is a new bolt on the upper slap since the description was written? definitely worth doing. Apr 3, 2006

[Hide Comment] James, I just had to comment on your post. When you have only top roped a route you have no credibility when you say it's "totally leadable". My advice, lead it then post your comment. It's not leadable, for you, until you lead it! They call it the "sharp end" for a reason.

Cheers, mate Sep 20, 2006

[Hide Comment] Moving to the corner just reduces the runout you would have if you went straight up the slab. However, both times I have climbed the route, (once on toprope, once on lead) I went straight to the anchors and not the corner. Personally, I thought this was an easier 5.10. But it might be because I prefer slab. Sep 21, 2006

[Hide Comment] I agree with Tim I do not think you are supposed to go to the corner, the route just follows the bolts up. There is a it of space but the climbing is not hard and keeps it fun with the bolt spacing. May 2, 2010

[Hide Comment] Did this route today on lead...loved it! I, too, went straight to the anchors w/out any additional gear as did my climbing partner and was very happy for it. If you're not used to 5.10 slab (like me) I highly recommend this one! Sep 9, 2011

[Hide Comment] Reminded me of the Stronghold. Edgy down low with slab straight up to the chains. There was one spot where a 1/2-inch cam could be placed in a pocket. We just did it with the bolts. Moving to the corner is a different route. Sep 10, 2011