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Should the biner block rappel be for tag lines only?

Caleb · · Ward, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 270
Serge S wrote:

May not apply on the terrain you climb, but the risk of the carabiner getting stuck in cracks / vegetation should be considered.

This is my primary concern with a ‘biner block.   

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

You should know different systems but only use one unless dire circumstances negate your primary system. 

P B · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2019 · Points: 67

The partner of the deceased summed it up best. A rappelling accident could just happen to any of us no matter how much we do to mitigate it. Environmental factors, human factors, maybe you just rush at a single anchor over the thousands of pitches you climb and it kills you. There are plenty of examples of people only loading one side of a tube style device, just like someone could load the wrong side of a carabiner block rappel. I’ll continue to use whatever the situation calls for; personally I’ve started single line rappelling much more lately. Either way, we all just need to do our best to weight the anchor/check our systems/back ourselves up as much as possible.

Sometimes we just fuck up. 

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

you fuck up a lot easier with a complicated system vs a simple system.

Matthew Patterson · · San Diego, CA · Joined Jun 2019 · Points: 0

If rappelling a single rope on a gri gri with a block on one side, why not use a friction hitch on the pull strand side as an additional backup? I’m wondering why this isn’t common practice for those that use this rappel technique. 

Austin Donisan · · San Mateo, CA · Joined May 2014 · Points: 668
Matthew Patterson wrote:

If rappelling a single rope on a gri gri with a block on one side, why not use a friction hitch on the pull strand side as an additional backup? I’m wondering why this isn’t common practice for those that use this rappel technique. 

It's not a backup unless you've already messed up.

Putting a friction hitch on a non-fixed rope makes you likely to trust it by mistake somehow.

You literally don't have enough hands to tend it anyway.

Big Red · · Seattle · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 1,158
Serge S wrote:

May not apply on the terrain you climb, but the risk of the carabiner getting stuck in cracks / vegetation should be considered.

Fair, I climb mostly on granite so have not run into this issue since I'm somewhat careful to keep the pull side out of any obvious cracks/constrictions. It could be worse on more featured rock or easier/more rambly terrain. 

Matthew Patterson · · San Diego, CA · Joined Jun 2019 · Points: 0
Austin Donisan wrote:

It's not a backup unless you've already messed up.

Putting a friction hitch on a non-fixed rope makes you likely to trust it by mistake somehow.

You literally don't have enough hands to tend it anyway.

Well what about wrapping both strands like a normally backed up ATC rappel. 

old5ten · · Sunny Slopes + Berkeley, CA… · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 5,636
Andrew Rice wrote:

If the point is to let ONE climber get down with just a GriGri there are better ways to accomplish it. The most straightforward is to have the climber with an ATC-style device block the rope by setting up on top and weight that device so it locks. Then the climber with the GriGri descends on a single strand to the ledge or station below. Climber with the two rope device then descends as normal.

This obviously doesn't work if both climbers are using GriGris. 

single rope, two strands, two grigris:

1. stopper knots in rope ends (always!!!)

2. thread/clip rope at anchor to/at middle mark, then fix the rope

3. one person/grigri clipped into rope on one side of anchor, the other person/grigri clipped into rope on other side of anchor (ie one on one strand the other on the other strand), both back up (autoblock, etc.) on their rope strand

4. one person raps to lower anchor, other person stays at upper anchor

5. person at lower anchor clips/tethers into anchor and keeps grigri on/locked 

6. upper person removes top anchor rope fix and rappels on their strand

there are variations on this, but that's the basic system.  it is in effect similar to having both climbers set up for a double strand/atc rappel before the first climber raps.  

MattH · · CO mostly · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 1,319

I had the same thought as OP when I heard about the recent accident. It seems unnecessarily error prone to biner block rap if you have an ATC and two undamaged equal diameter ropes/rope halves.

Sure, weighting the system helps but after dark/when tired/in the rain/etc it’s easy to overlook things, especially if weighting the rappel device doesn’t do much to affect the system (like when rapping off a ledge where pull forces start quite low until you lower onto the face below). 

Then again, the ATC comes with its own host of failure modes (lessened but not eliminated by a 3rd hand+extended device), so who knows how the relative risk all shakes out. To me, the standard rap setup has a rote familiarity (so that the safety checks are innate at this point) but maybe that’s a false sense of security.



Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,809
Serge S wrote:

May not apply on the terrain you climb, but the risk of the carabiner getting stuck in cracks / vegetation should be considered.

Agree.

Although not my default rap system, I’ve used a biner block a fair number of times. And I was at first surprised at how small of a bit of vegetation can bring the pull to a halt.

Just scanned most other posts. Good to see KISS finally made a showing.

I’ll add that weighting the rap system also has its limitations, especially on terrain that is initially low angle. I can name a couple of related fatalities. Bump testing - which is what “load testing” while tethered often degrades to, mostly just checks the alignment of harness, locker, device, rope.

100% visual inspection without multi-tasking is where it’s at - and not just to answer “is the rope threaded properly through my device?”

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

lot of accidents with this system considering how rarely its used in the general climbing population. 

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2
Nick Goldsmith wrote:

lot of accidents with this system considering how rarely its used in the general climbing population. 

I see it quite a bit around here, lots of folks are bringing grigris up multi-pitch without an ATC to rap with. I think any way down is 100% fine from a gg to a munter with triple safety checks and some backup. 

Jim Urbec · · Sevierville, TN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 61
M M wrote:

I see it quite a bit around here, lots of folks are bringing grigris up multi-pitch without an ATC to rap with. I think any way down is 100% fine from a gg to a munter with triple safety checks and some backup. 

P. A. C. E..... primary, alternate, contingency, emergency

Andrew Rice · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 11
old5ten wrote:

single rope, two strands, two grigris:

1. stopper knots in rope ends (always!!!)

2. thread/clip rope at anchor to/at middle mark, then fix the rope

3. one person/grigri clipped into rope on one side of anchor, the other person/grigri clipped into rope on other side of anchor (ie one on one strand the other on the other strand), both back up (autoblock, etc.) on their rope strand

4. one person raps to lower anchor, other person stays at upper anchor

5. person at lower anchor clips/tethers into anchor and keeps grigri on/locked 

6. upper person removes top anchor rope fix and rappels on their strand

there are variations on this, but that's the basic system.  it is in effect similar to having both climbers set up for a double strand/atc rappel before the first climber raps.  

Yes. This works, too. It's essentially a time delayed variation of a simul-rap but much safer. It still requires TWO people to be safe and to coordinate together vs. just one person getting it right, which is most other rappelling techniques. 

Wolfgang Devine · · Bend, OR · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 0

I appreciate everyone’s input on this.  Some of the uncommon scenarios (especially regarding rope damage) where a biner block could be useful were helpful tips for me to put in my back pocket. Of course, building the habit of testing your new system every time before you remove your old system is invaluable. Personally, I’m pretty religious with this even when it feels overkill just because I’ve experienced a handful of times where that habit has saved me.  Particularly when the going gets tougher, the value of habits is immense, for better or for worse. 

ddriver · · SLC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 2,084

Regardless of what rap setup is being used, a consistent process of test while tethered makes any of them functional.

To me the pertinent question becomes why are people not appropriately tethered at a rappel station. 

Many years ago I had a partner who arrived at a rap station and did not immediately tether. I made sure that was the last time that ever happened.

My hypothesis is that they are likely using an ad hoc tether, most likely a climbing sling or slings that limit their maneuverability or functionality at the rap station or they may be using nothing. I strongly believe in a dedicated tether that exceeds my reach and allows me to connect in two places should there be any system failure. I'm almost always the one who raps first, cleans the ropes, stacks the ropes, and preps the station for whoever comes next or is already there. Being short slung to a rap station is not conducive to any of this, especially in a crowded or awkward stance.

Choose whatever tether works for you but it should be both the first and last thing you do at a rap station. That is rule #1 for safely descending.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

the Petzle connect is a game changer and doubbles as an adjustable daisy for aid climbing. 

Bb Cc · · California · Joined May 2020 · Points: 14

No matter the device, method, or habits: Cold saps your physical and mental strength.

As has been said: There but for the grace of God go I.

MattH · · CO mostly · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 1,319

Food for thought as we all contemplate the possibility for mistakes to creep in when tired/cold/wet/distracted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling

Maybe in 20 years we'll all be pointing at our belay devices and such.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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