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To recess or not recess glue-ins?

Original Post
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

In the following topic, "Photos of Beautiful Hardware", there are many photos of beautiful hardware.  There are also a few examples of not so beautiful glue-in hardware, IMO.

I know this has been hashed over for many years but at this point in the evolution of bolting, perhaps it's time to get a general consensus on best glue-in practices.

Recessing (aka troughing) glue-ins.  I've climbed quite a few routes where the bolts are overly recessed making the eye smaller and hard to clip.  Also the top biner is often wedged against the rock/glue preventing it from rotating under load, or causing it to stick out and sometimes just obviously cross-loaded.  

Yes, I know that some manufacturers recommend recessing their bolts but, for every brand I've heard about, the bolts exceed UIAA standards without recessing.  It would be unsettling if this were not true.  Are there any brands that do not meet the standard unless recessed?   

So I'll throw it out there: I don't believe that glue-in bolts need to be recessed at all.  Just drill a hole, add glue and press the bolt in so the eye touches the rock face. They are easier to clip, the biner can rotate freely without cross loading.

Tal M · · Denver, CO · Joined Dec 2018 · Points: 3,189

Until the recent UIAA 123 Rock Anchor standard (which I think only the crossover bolt meets), no standard has accounted for rotational torque on the glue-in bolt, and from my understanding, recessing is done only for bolts which may be more susceptible to turning into torqueing out of position either during or after install due to the lack of any sort of interference fit to counteract that - e.g. SLBs, Raumers, etc. I don't think any other glue-ins should be recessed IIRC.

Jim Day · · Fort Worth, TX · Joined Jan 2020 · Points: 3,159

The main reason to recess is to prevent the possibility of the rope getting caught over the top of the bolt.  Preventing rotation is secondary to that, and honestly if you're using good glue and don't mess it up, that shouldn't be a factor (except maybe with Fixe since they don't have any feature to prevent rotation other than notching).

So definitely notch Fixe glue ins (fixe specifies 10 degree angle to additionally prevent the risk of rope snag, though this cuts down on the usable portion of the eye).  No need to notch SLBs because they have features to prevent rotation.  I personally discourage notching SLBs because their eye is already small and you really don't want to make it smaller 

Raumer Superstars are a conundrum because going by manufacturer spec, you have to notch them UNLESS you're using a glue capsule (probably because the glue capsule installation requirement is to rotate the bolt in the hole 10x, which the notch might get in the way of?).  By the same logic as not needing to notch SLBs, I don't see a real need to notch superstars... But it's what the manufacturer specifies, and the eye is huge, so why not?  

I agree that over notching can be a problem, and it is a fine line. 

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Jim Day wrote:

The main reason to recess is to prevent the possibility of the rope getting caught over the top of the bolt.  

I agree that some designs don't have enough "slope" on the eye to prevent the rope from snagging.   IMO, that's a design flaw that should be fixed by the manufacturer.  I believe that when bolts are placed on a slab that this problem is the worst, but if you compare a glue-in to a mechanical bolt on the same slab, I'd much prefer a glue in (recessed or not!) to a mechanical bolt hanger.

Preventing rotation is secondary to that, and honestly if you're using good glue and don't mess it up, that shouldn't be a factor (except maybe with Fixe since they don't have any feature to prevent rotation other than notching).

Also true.   I've placed a few Fixe bolts, and notched them, but they are on my shit-list these days.  

And just to throw some fuel into the fire, 20 years ago I did some rotation tests with single, round shaft bolts with no feature to stop rotation.  By putting a crowbar through the eyes and cranking on it, I was able to make them rotate inside their hole.  I continued to rotate the bolts over and over until I could rotate them with one finger.  Then I tried to pry them out.  Couldn't do it.  The eyes ended up breaking long before the bolts gave any indication of pulling out.  I think the rotating thing is over wrought.

I agree that over notching can be a problem, and it is a fine line. 

I think we should vote with our money and only buy bolts that don't need notching.  The extra time, glue, battery life and drill life spent notching more than makes up for any cost savings on the bolts.

Jim Day · · Fort Worth, TX · Joined Jan 2020 · Points: 3,159

All great points, and I do usually buy Bolt Product SLBs specifically because they're one of the only 10mm glue ins that specify not to notch (and because they're a great price). 

I use a lot of Twist/ wave/ crossovers too, but I don't like them for top anchors due to the possibility that someone will want to lower directly off the bolt and they don't have a good bend radius for that, plus they'll wear out too fast.

I only use fixe bolts if I'm trying to be flashy because they do look elegant when carefully installed.  But manufacturers should prioritize ease of use and mistake-proof solutions.

Eric Berghorn · · Calistoga,CA · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 968

I can’t see how this thread could possibly continue without an obligatory photo of a notched glue-in placement. The bolt and photo is not mine and I apologize if this photo may have appeared in a previous “beautiful hardware” thread.

John noted that it’s not necessary to notch the rock to have a quality placement…which I agree with. I’ve also seen photos of glue-in bolts placed in slabs that were not notched and the eye was sticking way out from the rock face. I felt that such placements could appear unsightly even if they were completely bomber. These types of placements, or ones with poor colored glue/rock matches, sometimes brought criticism in comments. It really comes down to beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

I’ve seen a tendency for the installer who is prone to notching to see himself/herself to become a kind of “sculptor”. Someone who takes extra care to create something they believe is aesthetically appealing, desireable, etc. These installers are what made the “Beautiful Hardware” threads endlessly appealing to certain posters here… 

In the end we all want a safe, long-lasting placement with appropriate metals used for the area in which it is installed. Is there value in taking extra time to shape the surface to achieve the sexiest results ? Is this eye candy or eye sore ? 

Jason Hurry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2024 · Points: 0
Eric Berghorn wrote:

I can’t see how this thread could possibly continue without an obligatory photo of a notched glue-in placement. The bolt and photo is not mine and I apologize if this photo may have appeared in a previous “beautiful hardware” thread.

John noted that it’s not necessary to notch the rock to have a quality placement…which I agree with. I’ve also seen photos of glue-in bolts placed in slabs that were not notched and the eye was sticking way out from the rock face. I felt that such placements could appear unsightly even if they were completely bomber. These types of placements, or ones with poor colored glue/rock matches, sometimes brought criticism in comments. It really comes down to beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

I’ve seen a tendency for the installer who is prone to notching to see himself/herself to become a kind of “sculptor”. Someone who takes extra care to create something they believe is aesthetically appealing, desireable, etc. These installers are what made the “Beautiful Hardware” threads endlessly appealing to certain posters here… 

In the end we all want a safe, long-lasting placement with appropriate metals used for the area in which it is installed. Is there value in taking extra time to shape the surface to achieve the sexiest results ? Is this eye candy or eye sore ? 

The new Lappas Titanium and SS corkscrews DO appear to require the notch according to boltahdownunder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAV8rL8qFQs

Twist bolts I have no issue not notching I just use a slightly bigger drill bit for example a 13mm drill bit for the 12mm rods. That way the eye is always flush with the rock. The single P rods especially those made from titanium I feel need to be notched. 100% anything with a weld needs to be notched but with the titanium P bolts I just feel that because titanium is a softer metal that SS it needs it.

Might as well put the bolt in 110% if it's titanium and you're using epoxy. More often that not the argument i've seen against notching is that it's harder to extract when the bolt reaches the end of its lifespan. Seems like a moot point because which bolter isn't just going to angle grind the bolt out regardless if it's notched or not...

Francis Haden · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 9

Neither EN959 or UIAA123 require notching / countersinking but do require a successful pass of the torque test for glue-in anchors.

Notching is a purely aesthetic issue for large glue-in anchors AND to prevent a rope being pinched underneath the eye.

For thinner rod glue-ins, there can be a degree of flex which has posed longterm issues in soft rock areas e.g. Blue Mountains of Australia so notching in this region is SOP.

Notching will however, provide additional torsion resistance and support beneath the base of the glue-in eye. Tests by Martin Roberts (Titan Climbing) have confirmed this. But over notching can result in the attached karabiner snapping if sufficiently levered. I personally know of one situation where this resulted in a ground fall.

Jim Day · · Fort Worth, TX · Joined Jan 2020 · Points: 3,159

Eric Berghorn wrote:

In the end we all want a safe, long-lasting placement with appropriate metals used for the area in which it is installed. Is there value in taking extra time to shape the surface to achieve the sexiest results ? Is this eye candy or eye sore ?

There is value in taking the extra time (besides being aesthetically pleasing).  Less glue with a smooth fillet flush with the rock surface means better water displacement, and fewer sharp edges.

Jason Hurry wrote:

100% anything with a weld needs to be notched

For fixe, yes you cover the weld, but for raumer superstars and other p shaped glue ins, if you try to completely cover the weld, you're probably over-notching

Jason Hurry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2024 · Points: 0
Jim Day wrote:

Eric Berghorn wrote:

For fixe, yes you cover the weld, but for raumer superstars and other p shaped glue ins, if you try to completely cover the weld, you're probably over-notching

It would be a really interesting piece of work to take one of those P shaped bolts with a weld, install it with the weld only slightly extruding and repeatedly drop test. I'm sure they're super bomber enough.

Jim Day · · Fort Worth, TX · Joined Jan 2020 · Points: 3,159

Top left- bolts which must be recessed

Top right- the manufacturer specifies to recess, but it would probably be OK if you don't?

Bottom left - manufacturer specifies no need to recess

Bottom right - PLEASE DO NOT RECESS

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2

I agree about the Fixe design sucking, they should redesign to modern standards,  especially knowing how easy it can be to glue in with the weld in the wrong position. 

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
M M wrote:

I agree about the Fixe design sucking, they should redesign to modern standards

I just want to say, again, that I strongly agree.   And I include the other manufacturers who make similar sucky designs.  

especially knowing how easy it can be to glue in with the weld in the wrong position. 

I have a bit of bad history with Fixe and their bolts, so I expect they won't change anything.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Jim Day wrote:

Top left- bolts which must be recessed

Top right- the manufacturer specifies to recess, but it would probably be OK if you don't?

Bottom left - manufacturer specifies no need to recess

Bottom right - PLEASE DO NOT RECESS

Or an easier way to say it, no disrespect to Jim, Don't buy any of the bolts at the top of this photo.  

Past User · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,114
Jim Day wrote:

Top left- bolts which must be recessed

Top right- the manufacturer specifies to recess, but it would probably be OK if you don't?

Bottom left - manufacturer specifies no need to recess

Bottom right - PLEASE DO NOT RECESS

Mmmmmmm grilled bolts are delicious 

Past User · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,114

I love and prefer the Raumers over all others … and I’ve never had a problem with notching them. It does take extra care, time, and planning of the placement, but it’s worth it.

Billcoe · · Pacific Northwet · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 936
Past User wrote:

I love and prefer the Raumers over all others … and I’ve never had a problem with notching them. It does take extra care, time, and planning of the placement, but it’s worth it.

Proud work.

Past User · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,114

Thanks Billcoe!

Jason Hurry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2024 · Points: 0
Past User wrote:

I love and prefer the Raumers over all others … and I’ve never had a problem with notching them. It does take extra care, time, and planning of the placement, but it’s worth it.

BEEFY

timothy fisher · · CHARLOTTE · Joined Nov 2017 · Points: 30

I rarely notch but i usually radius the bottom of the hole. That allows the bend or weld to sit properly with the bolt centered. Especially for twist bolts and SLBs where the hole diameter is minimized. I believe this will prevent dinner plating around the hole in most cases.  Only takes a few seconds to knock that edge off.

No Face · · Yubaba's bathhouse · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 1
timothy fisher wrote:

I rarely notch but i usually radius the bottom of the hole. That allows the bend or weld to sit properly with the bolt centered. Especially for twist bolts and SLBs where the hole diameter is minimized. I believe this will prevent dinner plating around the hole in most cases.  Only takes a few seconds to knock that edge off.

Can you explain this a little more? Do you mean that you move the drill around on the outside of the hole to make it slightly bigger and have the eye hole site against the rock more? 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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