To recess or not recess glue-ins?
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In the following topic, "Photos of Beautiful Hardware", there are many photos of beautiful hardware. There are also a few examples of not so beautiful glue-in hardware, IMO. I know this has been hashed over for many years but at this point in the evolution of bolting, perhaps it's time to get a general consensus on best glue-in practices. Recessing (aka troughing) glue-ins. I've climbed quite a few routes where the bolts are overly recessed making the eye smaller and hard to clip. Also the top biner is often wedged against the rock/glue preventing it from rotating under load, or causing it to stick out and sometimes just obviously cross-loaded. Yes, I know that some manufacturers recommend recessing their bolts but, for every brand I've heard about, the bolts exceed UIAA standards without recessing. It would be unsettling if this were not true. Are there any brands that do not meet the standard unless recessed? So I'll throw it out there: I don't believe that glue-in bolts need to be recessed at all. Just drill a hole, add glue and press the bolt in so the eye touches the rock face. They are easier to clip, the biner can rotate freely without cross loading. |
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Until the recent UIAA 123 Rock Anchor standard (which I think only the crossover bolt meets), no standard has accounted for rotational torque on the glue-in bolt, and from my understanding, recessing is done only for bolts which may be more susceptible to turning into torqueing out of position either during or after install due to the lack of any sort of interference fit to counteract that - e.g. SLBs, Raumers, etc. I don't think any other glue-ins should be recessed IIRC. |
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The main reason to recess is to prevent the possibility of the rope getting caught over the top of the bolt. Preventing rotation is secondary to that, and honestly if you're using good glue and don't mess it up, that shouldn't be a factor (except maybe with Fixe since they don't have any feature to prevent rotation other than notching). So definitely notch Fixe glue ins (fixe specifies 10 degree angle to additionally prevent the risk of rope snag, though this cuts down on the usable portion of the eye). No need to notch SLBs because they have features to prevent rotation. I personally discourage notching SLBs because their eye is already small and you really don't want to make it smaller Raumer Superstars are a conundrum because going by manufacturer spec, you have to notch them UNLESS you're using a glue capsule (probably because the glue capsule installation requirement is to rotate the bolt in the hole 10x, which the notch might get in the way of?). By the same logic as not needing to notch SLBs, I don't see a real need to notch superstars... But it's what the manufacturer specifies, and the eye is huge, so why not? I agree that over notching can be a problem, and it is a fine line. |
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Jim Day wrote: I agree that some designs don't have enough "slope" on the eye to prevent the rope from snagging. IMO, that's a design flaw that should be fixed by the manufacturer. I believe that when bolts are placed on a slab that this problem is the worst, but if you compare a glue-in to a mechanical bolt on the same slab, I'd much prefer a glue in (recessed or not!) to a mechanical bolt hanger.
Also true. I've placed a few Fixe bolts, and notched them, but they are on my shit-list these days. And just to throw some fuel into the fire, 20 years ago I did some rotation tests with single, round shaft bolts with no feature to stop rotation. By putting a crowbar through the eyes and cranking on it, I was able to make them rotate inside their hole. I continued to rotate the bolts over and over until I could rotate them with one finger. Then I tried to pry them out. Couldn't do it. The eyes ended up breaking long before the bolts gave any indication of pulling out. I think the rotating thing is over wrought.
I think we should vote with our money and only buy bolts that don't need notching. The extra time, glue, battery life and drill life spent notching more than makes up for any cost savings on the bolts. |
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All great points, and I do usually buy Bolt Product SLBs specifically because they're one of the only 10mm glue ins that specify not to notch (and because they're a great price). I use a lot of Twist/ wave/ crossovers too, but I don't like them for top anchors due to the possibility that someone will want to lower directly off the bolt and they don't have a good bend radius for that, plus they'll wear out too fast. I only use fixe bolts if I'm trying to be flashy because they do look elegant when carefully installed. But manufacturers should prioritize ease of use and mistake-proof solutions. |
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I can’t see how this thread could possibly continue without an obligatory photo of a notched glue-in placement. The bolt and photo is not mine and I apologize if this photo may have appeared in a previous “beautiful hardware” thread. I’ve seen a tendency for the installer who is prone to notching to see himself/herself to become a kind of “sculptor”. Someone who takes extra care to create something they believe is aesthetically appealing, desireable, etc. These installers are what made the “Beautiful Hardware” threads endlessly appealing to certain posters here… In the end we all want a safe, long-lasting placement with appropriate metals used for the area in which it is installed. Is there value in taking extra time to shape the surface to achieve the sexiest results ? Is this eye candy or eye sore ? |
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Eric Berghorn wrote: The new Lappas Titanium and SS corkscrews DO appear to require the notch according to boltahdownunder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAV8rL8qFQs Twist bolts I have no issue not notching I just use a slightly bigger drill bit for example a 13mm drill bit for the 12mm rods. That way the eye is always flush with the rock. The single P rods especially those made from titanium I feel need to be notched. 100% anything with a weld needs to be notched but with the titanium P bolts I just feel that because titanium is a softer metal that SS it needs it. Might as well put the bolt in 110% if it's titanium and you're using epoxy. More often that not the argument i've seen against notching is that it's harder to extract when the bolt reaches the end of its lifespan. Seems like a moot point because which bolter isn't just going to angle grind the bolt out regardless if it's notched or not... |
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Neither EN959 or UIAA123 require notching / countersinking but do require a successful pass of the torque test for glue-in anchors. |
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Eric Berghorn wrote: In the end we all want a safe, long-lasting placement with appropriate metals used for the area in which it is installed. Is there value in taking extra time to shape the surface to achieve the sexiest results ? Is this eye candy or eye sore ? There is value in taking the extra time (besides being aesthetically pleasing). Less glue with a smooth fillet flush with the rock surface means better water displacement, and fewer sharp edges. Jason Hurry wrote: For fixe, yes you cover the weld, but for raumer superstars and other p shaped glue ins, if you try to completely cover the weld, you're probably over-notching |
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Jim Day wrote:
It would be a really interesting piece of work to take one of those P shaped bolts with a weld, install it with the weld only slightly extruding and repeatedly drop test. I'm sure they're super bomber enough. |
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Top left- bolts which must be recessed Top right- the manufacturer specifies to recess, but it would probably be OK if you don't? Bottom left - manufacturer specifies no need to recess Bottom right - PLEASE DO NOT RECESS |
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I agree about the Fixe design sucking, they should redesign to modern standards, especially knowing how easy it can be to glue in with the weld in the wrong position. |
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M M wrote: I just want to say, again, that I strongly agree. And I include the other manufacturers who make similar sucky designs.
I have a bit of bad history with Fixe and their bolts, so I expect they won't change anything. |
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Jim Day wrote: Or an easier way to say it, no disrespect to Jim, Don't buy any of the bolts at the top of this photo. |
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Jim Day wrote: Mmmmmmm grilled bolts are delicious |
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I love and prefer the Raumers over all others … and I’ve never had a problem with notching them. It does take extra care, time, and planning of the placement, but it’s worth it. |
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Past User wrote: Proud work. |
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Past User wrote: BEEFY |
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I rarely notch but i usually radius the bottom of the hole. That allows the bend or weld to sit properly with the bolt centered. Especially for twist bolts and SLBs where the hole diameter is minimized. I believe this will prevent dinner plating around the hole in most cases. Only takes a few seconds to knock that edge off. |
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timothy fisher wrote: Can you explain this a little more? Do you mean that you move the drill around on the outside of the hole to make it slightly bigger and have the eye hole site against the rock more? |