American Fork Canyon rescue operation - rappel knot gets stuck

One of MP users provided some information about the route in question - 

Tyler M wrote:

The route in question was 30 at the B52 wall, you wouldn’t be able to relead all the pitches with a stuck rope. 

Here is link to route - 30

I suspect this part might get you in  trouble if rope gets stuck on the pull-down-

Descent
A single 70 meter rope will get you down in a few rappels. I used two 70’s on the F.A. and did it in two rappels. Be careful rappelling from the top of pitch 4 and over the roof, it is a free hanging rappel so make sure your rope is on the slab before you go over the lip. 

Disclaimer - no personal experience with route, just posting info gleamed in this thread

The pitches are short, some as short as 50 feet. The route traverses left for pitch 3 then back right on pitch 4. The route can be rapped with a single 70m rope. The rap from the 4th pitch is a plum line rap past an overhang and I *believe* ends at the top of pitch 2.

If victims were at the top of the forth or fifth pitch and the rope stuck at the top of the fifth or sixth pitch respectively, then they *probably* could have ascended backup. It they were at the top of the first pitch with the rope stuck at the top of the second pitch they could have fixed the rope and descend the remaining 80 feet to the ground. They could have also climbed back up the second pitch which is 50 feet long.

If the victims were rapping the plumb line from the forth pitch down to the second pitch they would probably not have been able to easily lead backup because of the traversing nature of the third and forth pitches.

However, from the top of second pitch they could have easily reached the ground with the remaining rope. Though it would require cutting the rope. The second pitch is 50 feet would be reachable with what rope was left (though doubled) from half a 60m rope (and definitely from a 70m rope). The first pitch is 80 feet at that point one fixes the rope and rappels a single to the ground and walks away.

Dude, did you untie the knot?

Dude !

Dude !! 

Dude !!!

Andy Kirkpatrick does a good job of addressing similar situations in 'Down'.

Don't overthink this, folks. We aren't talking about Tobin Sorenson here. More like Bill & Ted.

apogee wrote:

Don't overthink this, folks. We aren't talking about Tobin Sorenson here. More like Bill & Ted.

What an amazing screenshot, this is all I  saw during the 4 minute interview !

Even funnier when you realize there's an easy 15 minute walk off from the top of this climb. 

Maybe (hopefully) this will be the thing that finally gets people to stop rapping down that choss pile and raining hellfire on the rest of the people trying to climb at B-52 Wall!

apogee wrote:

Don't overthink this, folks. We aren't talking about Tobin Sorenson here. More like Bill & Ted.

This needs to be made into a meme 

apogee wrote:

Don't overthink this, folks. We aren't talking about Tobin Sorenson here. More like Bill & Ted.

I'll tell you, Stu. I did battle some humongous pitches. But you know, just like I told the guy on ABC, 'danger is my business'";

Related: https://www.facebook.com/inyosar/posts/pfbid02E8C75MzWitekqV5DmBb8AASnHzhNeqaVjycerjr415GXXU9XenA9gcT3vaTuTTQkl

(This link is viewable even if you don't have Facebook)

i thought the video was pretty funny. i kept waiting for them to start yelling "cornholio!!!, cornholio!!!".

Ellen - thanks for the link.

What incompetence on display!

SAR team are so incredible with the amount of patience they have.

I actually think we should have no rescues. If climbing was dangerous and deadly again people might not take it to casually and double think about dying before setting off.

Guy Keesee wrote:

Ellen - thanks for the link.

What incompetence on display!

SAR team are so incredible with the amount of patience they have.

I actually think we should have no rescues. If climbing was dangerous and deadly again people might not take it to casually and double think about dying before setting off.

To be honest,  most of us were there at some point.  I know I probably was there at a point even if I've never been rescued.  

It's still fun to drive the point home though! 

Guy Keesee wrote:

Ellen - thanks for the link.

What incompetence on display!

SAR team are so incredible with the amount of patience they have.

I actually think we should have no rescues. If climbing was dangerous and deadly again people might not take it to casually and double think about dying before setting off.

What if you’re actually a competent climber who gets into a sticky situation due only to bad luck? In a super remote area like Alaska? 

Armchair theorizing based on available data: Even if in the worst case scenario with the stopper knot caught at the pitch 4 anchor, based on this route photo, I still think I personally would have tried a self-rescue before before calling for help. You have a 70 M rope, so with the knot stuck you have 100 feet of rope on the ledge with you. You'd clip in on a tied knot a bit past 1/2 rope, so that you still have an 80 foot lead rope, end tied to your belayer,  and a 120 foot rope above you stuck on the knot.  Even with the diagonal at the start, you'd have enough slack in the system above you to get to the pitch 3 anchor, since your moving left but also up.  It doesn't look like there are big features for the slack rope above you to get caught by a loop and trap you from below with tension, but to be safe you'd have to keep flipping it and taking in the accumulating slack, to clip to your harness while moving up.  From the pitch 3 anchor, reposition your tie in to get rid of most of the rope above you loops that you secured to your harness, and lead again on a tied knot.

Of course none of us would ever forget to untie a stopper knot, would we. I never have, knock wood. I've had tied rope knots get stuck on pulls, but never a stopper knot.

Short story:

I'm at a local area with a row of sport routes about 45-50 feet high.  I am just about to lead a route and the person at the adjacent route 5 feet away next to me says, "excuse me but I forgot to untie the knot in the end of my rope before I pulled it and it's stuck at the anchor.  Would you mind using your rope and helping us with the knot when you get up there?".  I say of course I'd be happy to help you but you have 150 feet of spare rope at your feet so you can just tie into the other end and re-lead the route and get it yourself if you want to. The guy says "oh I never thought of that!"

Ben B wrote:

What if you’re actually a competent climber who gets into a sticky situation due only to bad luck? In a super remote area like Alaska? 

Ben… I only jest when I say “no rescues”.

The fact that people can dial up SAR and get pulled off in time to go have drinks at the bar with zero consequences just leads to more rescues. IMHO 

And when one goes to “super remote” places? You better have the skills and judgment to stay out of trouble and get out of trouble or die.

Guy Keesee wrote:

The fact that people can dial up SAR and get pulled off in time to go have drinks at the bar with zero consequences just leads to more rescues. IMHO 

Yeah, your opinion, but it's not true.

Ahh Bra its just like
Dood you get the worst rope eating flakes ever dood
Just like you pull the rope and u just get nuthin' out of'em
and you just yankin' in and goin' no where like..WhaPaa!
Drop down snap-BARRALALAA!
and then after that we just called Utah County search and rescue
They the bomb, hooked it up
so hooked it up like that...

Marc801 C wrote:

Yeah, your opinion, but it's not true.

We all have opinions, Mark. Why do you say “not true” 

Explain, please. 

phylp phylp wrote:

Armchair theorizing based on available data: Even if in the worst case scenario with the stopper knot caught at the pitch 4 anchor, based on this route photo, I still think I personally would have tried a self-rescue before before calling for help. You have a 70 M rope, so with the knot stuck you have 100 feet of rope on the ledge with you. You'd clip in on a tied knot a bit past 1/2 rope, so that you still have an 80 foot lead rope, end tied to your belayer,  and a 120 foot rope above you stuck on the knot.  Even with the diagonal at the start, you'd have enough slack in the system above you to get to the pitch 3 anchor, since your moving left but also up.  It doesn't look like there are big features for the slack rope above you to get caught by a loop and trap you from below with tension, but to be safe you'd have to keep flipping it and taking in the accumulating slack, to clip to your harness while moving up.  From the pitch 3 anchor, reposition your tie in to get rid of most of the rope above you loops that you secured to your harness, and lead again on a tied knot.

Of course none of us would ever forget to untie a stopper knot, would we. I never have, knock wood. I've had tied rope knots get stuck on pulls, but never a stopper knot.

Short story:

I'm at a local area with a row of sport routes about 45-50 feet high.  I am just about to lead a route and the person at the adjacent route 5 feet away next to me says, "excuse me but I forgot to untie the knot in the end of my rope before I pulled it and it's stuck at the anchor.  Would you mind using your rope and helping us with the knot when you get up there?".  I say of course I'd be happy to help you but you have 150 feet of spare rope at your feet so you can just tie into the other end and re-lead the route and get it yourself if you want to. The guy says "oh I never thought of that!"

I climbed this route immediately prior to these guys and chatted with them at the base. I can say for a fact that first, they had a 60 m rope, second, they were too inexperienced to try some of the self rescue methods proposed in this thread. Should they have been doing what they were? Probably not. Should they have called SAR when they did? Absolutely. This thread implies an inexperienced climber superposition, where they’re junior enough to make this sort of mistake but also experienced enough to solve it anyway. This was not the case. Always better to have a successful SAR call to bodies. I hope they learn from this and have a long and successful climbing “career”, as they are nice kids who fucked up that day. Hopefully they and other junior climbers won’t take the same risks and will get the mentorship and experience they need to not end up in this sort of debacle.