Worst destination climbing area to be a local?

I'm down near El Paso for the month and it got me thinking: is Hueco Tanks/El Paso the worst 'destination climbing area' to be local to?

Hueco's obviously got great climbing, but there's so many rules that make spontaneous weekend trips almost impossible unless you're friends with guides or show up at 7am. Plus it's 90-100+ degrees for 8 months of the year, you can't climb after rain, and there's zero alternatives within a 90 min radius.

What's your pick for the worst 'destination' area to be a local to?

MattH wrote:

I'm down near El Paso for the month and it got me thinking: is Hueco Tanks/El Paso the worst 'destination climbing area' to be local to?

Hueco's obviously got great climbing, but there's so many rules that make spontaneous weekend trips almost impossible unless you're friends with guides or show up at 7am. Plus it's 90-100+ degrees for 8 months of the year, you can't climb after rain, and there's zero alternatives within a 90 min radius.

What's your pick for the worst 'destination' area to be a local to?

Hueco is awesome, but the rules are onerous for sure. I do have to ask though…why can’t you climb in Hueco after the rain? The rock does not get crumbly or brittle. I spent most winter weekends in Hueco in the 90s, and rain never stopped anyone. Believe me, we had some really good days in the summer also. 

I'd have to go Chamonix, because there are people you know dying several times a year.

The park (Hueco) closes to climbing after a rain, I think the policy started last season. 

Frank Stein wrote:

Hueco is awesome, but the rules are onerous for sure. I do have to ask though…why can’t you climb in Hueco after the rain? The rock does not get crumbly or brittle. I spent most winter weekends in Hueco in the 90s, and rain never stopped anyone. Believe me, we had some really good days in the summer also. 

As with many areas, the consensus has become that rain weakens the rock and causes broken holds (in particular, at Hueco Tanks, weakening the connection between the patina and lower layer). The degree to which this is verifiable and the extent of the necessary waiting period are both debatable but, regardless, the park closes to climbing the day(s) after it rains.

Re: summer climbing, you can get in an hour or two at the start of the day before it hits 90s (especially chasing shade) but the same can be said of any other desert area, and those also allow climbing outside the hours of 8am-6pm (inconveniently excluding the only times when the temps are properly 'good' in the summer).

Honestly, having lived in Northern California for my first few months as a climber, I think it's a candidate, at least for weekend warriors. Of course the climbing is spectacular BUT

• If you're living in the SF bay area, you have world-class climbing, 4-7 hours away! There's no good casual cragging close to home. You always have to devote a full weekend.
  • Also the local climbing is of the "don't climb after rain" variety which is pretty relevant in winter/spring. 
• There aren't really population centers with jobs that are close to the climbing. Even if you managed to live or dirtbag in a more ideal location, there's still problems. 
• Yosemite -> 
  • Crowds from traveling climbers + tourists 
  • Logistical problems... 5am start to beat timed entry, have to drive hour+ outside the park to camp, etc.. 
  • I pretty much ran out of interesting moderates to do (incl other places like the Leap) already. Yeah my fault for being weak but I'm also weak in CO and I didn't run out of stuff to do in 4x as long. So to some extent, a visitor can get almost as much value out of NorCal climbing as a local can. 
  • Big wall permit system if that's your thing 
• Eastern sierra alpine granite is gorgeous but ...
  • Approaches long af. There are few single-day options. Always needs a weekend or more and the accompanying permit.
  • Permit system is an absolute nightmare.  I have to give up a whole Saturday of climbing because I need to be online at 9am to book a permit for 2 Saturdays in the future. Even then, it's no guarantee that you'l actually get the permit, or that partners + weather will line up for that date 2 weeks in the future. Booz Allen profit from cancelled permits from yours truly must be approaching 4 figures..
  • I seriously don't get how anyone climbs at high elevation while living at sea level .only other example I know of this is Rainier 

The adirondacks. Middle of nowhere, in the poor red part of a blue state, so you get the worst of everything, horrific black flies, deer flies and mosquitoes, cityots, bad approaches, and cold winters if you don’t like ice climbing. 

Nick Budka wrote:

The adirondacks. Middle of nowhere, in the poor red part of a blue state, so you get the worst of everything, horrific black flies, deer flies and mosquitoes, cityots, bad approaches, and cold winters if you don’t like ice climbing. 

But are also the reason the Adirondacks will stay forever sleepy! I’ve never run into traffic getting on a project in the ‘dacks, which is pretty sweet. The bugs and weather just build character I’ve been told..

MattH wrote:

As with many areas, the consensus has become that rain weakens the rock and causes broken holds (in particular, at Hueco Tanks, weakening the connection between the patina and lower layer). The degree to which this is verifiable and the extent of the necessary waiting period are both debatable but, regardless, the park closes to climbing the day(s) after it rains.

Re: summer climbing, you can get in an hour or two at the start of the day before it hits 90s (especially chasing shade) but the same can be said of any other desert area, and those also allow climbing outside the hours of 8am-6pm (inconveniently excluding the only times when the temps are properly 'good' in the summer).

Wow, that is bonkers! Like I said, I spent almost a decade there before the management plan and I never knew a hold to break due to rain. It’s not sandstone. 

Frank Stein wrote:

Wow, that is bonkers! Like I said, I spent almost a decade there before the management plan and I never knew a hold to break due to rain. It’s not sandstone. 

One hold. One goddamn hold. Then climbers argued about it online and THEN the park instituted the rules.

caesar.salad wrote:

One hold. One goddamn hold. Then climbers argued about it online and THEN the park instituted the rules.

Is that true? Do you have a link to the thread?

Miss Cat wrote:

Is that true? Do you have a link to the thread?

I have no reason to doubt Cesar Salad. I’m no geologist, but it is my understanding that Hueco is a type of rhyolite, pretty much impervious to water. However, it is also my experience that Texas Historical Parks will look for any reason to introduce new restrictions at Hueco. 

At Hueco, I would think that the preservation of the microbial soil and the pictographs also has a lil something to do with the rain closure, no?

Chad Namolik wrote:

At Hueco, I would think that the preservation of the microbial soil and the pictographs also has a lil something to do with the rain closure, no?

Nope, you can hike all you want, just can’t climb. And the restrictions were started informally by a few guides, and the park just made them official. I wouldn't have a problem with the restrictions if there was scientific evidence of weakening (or an irrefutable pattern like there is for desert sandstone). Instead, an unfalsifiable assertion ('The start of Nobody Here broke due to wet rock') has put a stink on climbing after rain that's impossible to remove. 

Anyway, to get back on track, I’ll agree the Bay Area scene is a bummer but 4 hrs to Yosemite is hardly local. By that logic I’m local to Moab. Maybe Sacramento I’ll grant. Yosemite would’ve been my #2 though because, though it’s got a lot of restrictions like Hueco, it’s also got a lot more climbing, better weather, and ultimately less restrictions.

caesar.salad wrote:

One hold. One goddamn hold. Then climbers argued about it online and THEN the park instituted the rules.

One hold?  I was recently climbing on a warm sunny day on granite in the Sierra and a hold broke. You don’t need rain to break a hold. 

I live about 2 hours south of Atlanta. Yonah was the first place I went as it was the closest sitting 3 hours away. For my very first trip it was awesome. After seeing pictures of western climbing, I quickly realized my 3 (at most) pitch tall granite dome was not worth the drive. After talking to those at the gym, they led me to Sandrock. So, we took off probably a week later. After just over 3 hours of driving, the experience was well enough that I have been back over 10 times. Now, I feel there is not much left in my grade range worth doing that I havent already sent. What do I do now? Drive further of course! Chattanooga holds very good climbing, so good that I could see it as a destination for some. After the 4 hour drive, why not just double it and go to The Red. Now, The Red is AMAZING. I’d like to go back for as long as I can. Unfortunately, all the big, scenic, multipitches are on the other side of the country. Luckily, two and a half years into my climbing journey, we are officially going to Indian Creek and Zion next May. The only place I could see being more inconvenient to live in is probably Florida. But we will make the most of what we can!

Let’s circle back.

A destination area is the question. Not some urban hell in California or the middle of nowhere Georgia. Using that metric, everywhere is a climbing town if you drive far enough

An area where there is a high percentage of climbers traveling to experience. Even if the climbing is amazing, what of these areas would suck?

I’ve lived in only 2 places that are a destination and both are rather nice, with caveats, so I can’t really contribute. I’m curious though, so let’s keep this on track.

Penitente?  It’s absolutely gorgeous, but man, the climbing is unpleasant. 

I mean...right this instant? North Carolina sounds pretty bad!

Also, not sure how international you were thinking, but Cape Town sounds like the opposite of a fun, safe and carefree place to live.

Unpopular opinion but...

As I've been saying for years:

SQUAMISH IS AN OVERLY VEGETATED RAIN FOREST - and the vegetation is winning... Almost any face climb that doesn't get a crap ton of regular ascents will moss right back up in a few seasons. Even some face climbs that do get regular ascents still moss up everywhere but where the critical holds are. Some crags are getting noticeably overgrown. Their photos in the recent 2020 guidebook show them as having been scrubbed pristine, but now they are half to completely mossed over. It doesn't matter that a crack climb gets hundreds of ascents a season, over the fall and winter the vegetation from above will rain organic debris on it, filling up the crack in time for the first person to climb it in the spring to have to use their nut tool to excavate the crack as they climb.

It has the shortest climbing season of any major international climbing destination. (Seriously, I tried to think of any major international "climbing" destination, as in people from around the world get on a plane to climb there, that has a shorter season than Squamish and the next contender I came up with is Patagonia - and that's not even the same type of climbing!) This is where some locals pipe in and say how they climb in Squamish over 150 days a year because they know that the exposed friction slabs dry out within hours, but do you really want to be doing the same dozen friction slabs over and over and over and over again? I think the reason why more people don't realize this is that most non-locals will visit in July or August when you are less likely to be rained out. They have a good time climbing there and leave with a positive impression of Squamish climbing. Whereas locals living in the area know that for a solid 6-7 months in Squamish  the number of days where the rock is wet outnumber days were the rock is dry. And then there's another 3-4 months where it's iffy for getting dry rock.

As for the climbing itself:

The cracks are too often flaring, irregular, or awkward. A lot of those so-call "cracks" wouldn't even be cracks if it weren't for decades of piton pounding and removing. You rarely get the nice splitter cracks that make for metres upon metres of great jamming like you do on desert sandstone or on basalt. Much of the granite is glacier polished.

Maybe if I climbed 5.11 trad or harder, and, maybe if I were better at friction slab climbing and better at being able to use the smeary features that proliferate granite domes I might appreciate Squamish more, but even then Squamish would still be an overly vegetated rainforest with a super short climbing season.

However, I now must add that I have spent the past 4 years doing more sport climbing in Squamish than I have ever done in my 17 years of climbing... and I... like it. The vast majority of Squamish sport climbing is on rock that is far more featured.

Squamish is still an overly vegetated rainforest with a super short climbing season though.