Stick clipping and Ticking

Should you even tick it if you stick-clip more than the first two bolts. If you haven't actually pulled the rope up and clipped it in to the provided fixed protection, which, I will give you this (it's OK), probably has a draw on it, then don't claim you have sent it. Or if you get it clean make it clear you top-roped part or half of it. Top-roping is not leading, and having to hang on long enough to pull rope up and clip makes it harder thus the grade. This is especially true on routes like Yard Boss, Bouldering 101 or Cressent. If you get it clean on TR, bravo! Be proud of that, it's climbing in the purest form. But please don't TR through or nearly through the crux and call it a lead ascent. As far as justifying it for "safety reasons" get a better belayer or TR that section til you can competently lead it. Yes, it might mean you have to work it a few more times which I think most of us realize makes the send all the sweeter. 

History note: When top-down route development began, if draws were hanging after bolting the line we would on the FA run, take the draw off, move it down to our harness, clip it back in the the bolt then clip the rope in. Not saying we should do that now but we didn't want to cheat ourselves of the physical experience someone leading it from the ground would have. I also ensured that we and most others could clip a draw to the bolt on lead.

My man, we live on a spinning rock hurling through space. Literally nothing matters and we’re all gunna die anyway, who cares. Let me stick clip and have my “Lead/Onsight”.

Ry C wrote:

My man, we live on a spinning rock hurling through space. Literally nothing matters and we’re all gunna die anyway, who cares. Let me stick clip and have my “Lead/Onsight”.

It's yours. Tainted... but still yours.

1Eric Rhicard wrote:

Should you even tick it if you stick-clip more than the first two bolts. If you haven't actually pulled the rope up and clipped it in to the provided fixed protection, which, I will give you this (it's OK), probably has a draw on it, then don't claim you have sent it. Or if you get it clean make it clear you top-roped part or half of it. Top-roping is not leading, and having to hang on long enough to pull rope up and clip makes it harder thus the grade. This is especially true on routes like Yard Boss, Bouldering 101 or Cressent. If you get it clean on TR, bravo! Be proud of that, it's climbing in the purest form. But please don't TR through or nearly through the crux and call it a lead ascent. As far as justifying it for "safety reasons" get a better belayer or TR that section til you can competently lead it. Yes, it might mean you have to work it a few more times which I think most of us realize makes the send all the sweeter. 

History note: When top-down route development began, if draws were hanging after bolting the line we would on the FA run, take the draw off, move it down to our harness, clip it back in the the bolt then clip the rope in. Not saying we should do that now but we didn't want to cheat ourselves of the physical experience someone leading it from the ground would have. I also ensured that we and most others could clip a draw to the bolt on lead.

Why do you care so much about what other people are doing? Does it actually affect you? 

In response to NateC and all, 

Does someone with an E-bike taint the experience?  (of biking - lotta stinkeye out there)

PS:  I enjoy top rope climbing as well.

Huh? Life must be pretty good if this is what you're worried about. Congrats! :).  FWIW - I'l climb however I want. If it bothers you, avert your eyes. 

"we would on the FA run, take the draw off, move it down to our harness, clip it back in the the bolt then clip the rope in"

How to out yourself as a "longtime" climber without stating it directly. The kids have, with good reason, dispensed with this nitpicking.

As someone who has been climbing hardish sport since the 1980s, I have never heard of this tactic until now.

The pre-clipping debate ship sailed long ago, mostly in the name of safety, along with the prehung draws debate and a dozen others I can't even recall.

mcarizona wrote:

In response to NateC and all, 

Does someone with an E-bike taint the experience?  (of biking - lotta stinkeye out there)

PS:  I enjoy top rope climbing as well.

No. I don't care what kind of bike someone else rides. 

I think a healthy life philosophy is to worry less about what other people are doing if they are not bothering my experience with their choices. 

Ry C wrote:

My man, we live on a spinning rock hurling through space. Literally nothing matters and we’re all gunna die anyway, who cares. Let me stick clip and have my “Lead/Onsight”.

Yes and no. If you're noting the ascent in your personal log/guidebook, then you're only accountable to yourself, who cares?

But in this digital age of advertising our tick list as a sort of CV, it matters a little bit more.

J L wrote:

Yes and no. If you're noting the ascent in your personal log/guidebook, then you're only accountable to yourself, who cares?

But in this digital age of advertising our tick list as a sort of CV, it matters a little bit more.

The routes referenced are in the 5.12 range. Not notable on anyone's "CV" at this point and certainly not worth getting your blood pressure up about "how we used to do it back in my day." 

As far as "advertising" one's tick list. If you're worth being noticed, you will be. If you fake it trying to be noticed, you'll get caught. Climbing has always policed itself rather well. And climbing resumes don't matter for shit anymore anyhow. It's about how many likes and followers you have on social media, which is ultimately going to hold the sport's future back anyway. 

I think one candidate for the first 9a route in the world is hubble in the UK which has only ever been done with the first two bolts stick clipped and that's the crux (after that it's 5.12 or something). So definitely not a blanket 'if you stick clip a bolt over a hard move it doesn't count '. I can't even climb 5.11 though and I'm not competing with anyone so what do I care. I'd just much rather not break an ankle if I could have done something easy to prevent it while keeping most of the fun. Also who cares if other people are using ebikes. Some of my riding buddies aged into enjoying ebike rides and I love that i still get to ride with them without it being painful for them.

Alexandre Passos wrote:

I think one candidate for the first 9a route in the world is hubble in the UK which has only ever been done with the first two bolts stick clipped ...

Random but this makes me wonder why the first bolt is there at all

Nate A wrote:

Random but this makes me wonder why the first bolt is there at all

Sometimes the first bolt helps keep the rope out of the way. Might also provide redundancy if the belay stance is dicey, ie if both climber and belayer could be pulled off if a single bolt failed. 

Also I think that particular route used to have the bottom overhang aided and then the top climbed free, so presumably that bolt is there to make aiding the first moves easier.

It's so cute that some still think we've policed ourselves well and follow rules.  

Powerdrillers Unite wrote:

It's so cute that some still think we've policed ourselves well and follow rules.  

It’s so cute when people are too passive aggressive to say what they really mean.

Call it out, or go back to the shadows. Who’s made a name for themself by cheating and not gotten caught? You seem to know, so why protect them by not saying anything? 

Nate A wrote:

Random but this makes me wonder why the first bolt is there at all

The routes at Raven Tor such as Hubble are very undercut at the start so the two bolt arrangement keeps the rope out of the way for the initial moves. A low directional bolt protects both climber and belayer from tangling with the rope in the event of a fall.

This is also seen in routes at the Hell Cave in American Fork. Sometimes the low first bolt is set so that it can be easily unclipped by the belayer once the climber is higher. It should be more common practice IMO.

Just listened to a podcast where Jerry Moffatt, UK climber of yore, is insistent that preclipping isn't "ethical." I think busting an ankle or worse because of a low unprotected crux is just stupid but that's me. Jerry doesn't climb anymore, which is also interesting.

I've always appreciated those whose who take a hard line on ethics. Climbing is still largely based on the "honor system", and there are some well-known scandals that have resulted from climbers allegedly exaggerating or downright falsifying their claims of success. It is good to hold ourselves to high standards because this erosion of ethics tends to be an incremental and cumulative process, a "slippery slope" if you will . . .

I'd hate to see us get to the point where we'd have to have video evidence or witnesses' signed affidavits before we could officially add a route to our tick list on Mountain Project   

I wonder, would the same people who jumped on the OP to say "it doesn't matter" also have a CVA if someone said "Yeah, I flashed that route on my third try" ? If so, why care about terms in one instance and not the other?

F r i t z wrote:

I wonder, would the same people who jumped on the OP to say "it doesn't matter" also have a CVA if someone said "Yeah, I flashed that route on my third try" ? If so, why care about terms in one instance and not the other?

I’ll speak for myself that I don’t care. I may giggle internally at their lack of awareness, but I don’t really care. I think the details like flash or red point are worth knowing, but I’m not going to force it on someone else as it has no material effect on the world  

I climb for myself, the way I want to climb, and I let others do the same for themselves. 

Wait til he hears about permadraws.  Do people still distinguish pink point/red point?