New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #31

Daniel Joder wrote:

That’s how I understand Gill’s philosophy as well. (Would love to hear him chime in.)
For me personally, it is indeed the movement that makes our silly sport so attractive. I would much rather climb an easier route in good style than thrash my way up a harder route. Sometimes, in the gym on the autobelays, I’ll just repeat the easiest routes on the wall just for the pure enjoyment of the movement—the flagging, smooth swapping of feet, maybe a rock over onto a distant hold, whatever… and I try to see if there is a more efficient way of climbing the route that I hadn’t thought of before.
BITD, with that young ego, I tended to want to tick the harder grade, even if I butchered the movement. Today, even if I’m successful, if it isn’t done smoothly it leaves me unsatisfied.

Well said, Daniel. When you strip away the competitive element of gymnastics what remains is the satisfaction of experiencing the flow of a movement or routine that you have polished. If climbing is seen as more an extension of gymnastics than of hiking that is true there as well. Incidentally, when I was at the U of Chicago in 1958-59 one of the members of the U of Chicago Mountaineering Club was  Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He went on to become the Father of Flow, a world famous psychologist. I suspect climbing at Devils Lake had a little to do with that. 

I spent more time scrambling and modest soloing than I did bouldering, the sense of flow, of uninterrupted movement delightful. But, for the first few years as a climber I was fascinated by the concept of what now might be called free solo exploration, what I saw as a kind of ultimate approach to the sport. By the early 1960s I had discovered my limitations in this regard, and backed away from dangerous adventures. As Kor said, a man has to know his limitations. (or was it Clint Eastwood? probably both)

"Today, even if I’m successful, if it isn’t done smoothly it leaves me unsatisfied."    You nailed it, my friend.

Meandered locally yesterday. Hiked a mountain to a view. That cliff In the background is a multi pitch WI5 called Shaker heights that I have led several times. Goes up the big corner. 

I am standing on a 100ft cliff here but fortunatly the granit is too steep and smooth for me to have to hump an FA pack all the way in here. A few overhaning aretts would be interesting to the 5.14 crowd. 

then I had to climb back over the mountain to get home. saw some cool places on the way

and a good sunset

If I wanted to climb harder, I would work on endurance over all else.  Most people are strong enough to climb harder than their max, and especially in the gym, are held back by their lack of endurance.  A 12a is a LOT easier if you are still fresh at the crux instead of already exhausted.

Jan Mc wrote:

If I wanted to climb harder, I would work on endurance over all else.  Most people are strong enough to climb harder than their max, and especially in the gym, are held back by their lack of endurance.  A 12a is a LOT easier if you are still fresh at the crux instead of already exhausted.

This is really great feedback! Thanks!

Jan Mc wrote:

If I wanted to climb harder, I would work on endurance over all else.  Most people are strong enough to climb harder than their max, and especially in the gym, are held back by their lack of endurance.  A 12a is a LOT easier if you are still fresh at the crux instead of already exhausted.

Was it Wolfgang who said, "without power...there is nothing to endure."?

Something like that.  Cheers!

phylp phylp wrote:

I did not sleep well last night.  Was reading the latest "Accidents in NAC" before bed.  I can only read a few pages at a time.  Then, checking Facebook, saw a post for a gofundme for a young guy who broke his back in a climbing accident and is paralyzed from the chest down.

I was climbing in the Bishop area this week.  First day back on the sharp end after a month off.  Felt "off" and uncertain.  I grabbed a draw on three of my 5.9 leads rather than risk a possibly ankle injurious fall (overhang onto a slab).  My partner is always so supportive "I would have grabbed that draw for that move too". But then I TRonsighted a few harder routes, 10c and a difficult 10d, so you see it's all in the mind. I'm still climbing fine for me, but after a month off, the head has just gotten squirrelly.

Another food note: I had to laugh when I read this line in an article in the LA Times food section: "His Nonna's meatballs are especially tender, bound by milk-soaked bread rather than traditional breadcrumbs or panko". There is nothing traditional about using breadcrumbs in your polpette mix. Certainly not panko, which was invented in Japan. It's always stale bread, hand pulled into small pieces and soaked in milk or water for a minute. Then you wring the excess liquid out. You only use dry fine bread crumbs for an exterior coating before pan frying, to get the seal on the meat before cooking in the sauce.

I'm not sure I understand what you could mean by "traditional " when it comes to recipes and cooking. Traditional as in Italian traditional I can understand but even Italian varies a ton from north to south.  

My mind usually tells me that TR is what I should do after time off but usually after one successful lead something switches. I definitely notice the head changing as age and wisdom sets in. Maybe accident reports before bed is a bad idea!

And getting better for me has always been about having endurance like Jan said but it definitely varies soooo much from person to person it's hard to put a blanket on that statement .  Paying attention to onsight level vs redpoint level is a decent guage for what you need the most. If you are redpointing 12s but you don't often onsight 10s you need endurance.

Brian in SLC wrote:

Was it Wolfgang who said, "without power...there is nothing to endure."?

Something like that.  Cheers!

Yaniro 

Sometimes it just takes a word or two to clarify things. Jan comment about endurance just set things straight for me.  And of course, John Gill talking about style and form.

Climbing has gotten off to a bumpy start this season due to the weather but I see that things are changing and we’ll be able to get back on rock more routinely.  But where to start?  I like the idea of building up endurance and doing  most of the strength training directly on the rock.  I can think of walls where you can just run yourself silly. 

This summer has changed a lot for me. I spend more more time outdoors just letting it all go.  I am taking more time just being with the tiny things – –noticing surprising little ferns growing under rocks, watching the dragonflies, getting to know where the snakes and the coyote live. Losing fear.  I think nature can make you strong if you let it.

Yesterday, I finally hiked over to Randy’s The Compassion of the Elephants and put my hands and feet on that wall. Bummer! It’s such a lovely sight now it’s going to be on my mind a lot. I still have business to finish over on the Torturer’s Apprentice.  One very cool thing is that Charles Cole was all over this wall and seems to have established routes in all my favorite places. I wish he was around to talk to. I feel like I have met him when I climb his routes.

there is such peace in this place. “Powerful medicine” as my Cherokee friend likes to say. But it always turns my power hike into a meditation time. So much for endurance. 

So when picking shoes, I thought I would take this picture as a reminder of what is needed.   Here’s a first foot on the compassion of the elephants. Just hoist a left foot onto that edge and step on up!

Kris on Compassion. Form, technique, endurance and beauty.

M M wrote:

And getting better for me has always been about having endurance like Jan said but it definitely varies soooo much from person to person it's hard to put a blanket on that statement .  Paying attention to onsight level vs redpoint level is a decent guage for what you need the most. If you are redpointing 12s but you don't often onsight 10s you need endurance.

We didn’t ask the details, but this coach mentioned that the one top rope flashes the hardest climbs but doesn’t lead anything difficult. Her partner leads up to 5.11c. We hadn’t thought to ask if he was climbing them clean or not?

He had only asked what we did and do to improve?

I hadn’t mentioned that my endurance built up pretty quickly once I started climbing every day, but my finger joints “feel” tired. So, I’m very aware of how much force I’m placing on them testing my maximum using a finger-board then never grab more than what feels like 20%. This is partly so that I can focus on my footwork on face and now cracks.

Endurance (and I assume we mean power-endurance?) as well as max power are pretty key for flashing top ropes or on-sight on lead at any grade. Perhaps, it’s just how much of each you possess?

The setters had told me that we should all climb ground up only, and yet, many people hang then “complete” the routes. To the setters, that’s not even considered a send, and I believe people who do that won’t build up the endurance required to climb harder routes?

The coach didn’t give us the details, but we had assumed they did ground up attempts which is what we do.

At our gym, 5.11a is relatively tame with 5.11b requiring a lot more power than 5.11a, and 5.11c can be tricky and more powerful moves when compared to 5.11b. But the step from 5.11c to 5.11d is much bigger cause there are very few rests. There are rests, but only if you’ve the strength to climb V5 boulders comfortably. 5.12a requires you to do dynamic moves after pumping out a long sequence of 5.11d moves and 12b and 12c require V6/7 strength at our gym.

5.11d is a huge step at my gym. There are a couple 5.11b that most people can’t do and more 5.11c and many 5.11d that most people can’t even start.

Frank Stein wrote:

Yaniro

Awesome climber! I miss not having his fingerboard any longer…I tossed it out when I was an obese 240-ish pound golfer. 

Li Hu wrote:

So, one of the gym climbers asked my climbing buddy and I what is the most important thing we’ve done thus far to improve our climbing. L

I said finger strength to prevent injury, cause I’m older and all that.

My climbing buddy said, footwork was key in his development. That and having this really great coach who’s volunteered to help us out. We created this image that he’s so effective at coaching given his past experiences as a professional baseball player in his youth.

This gym climber then confessed that he was one of the official coaches at the gym.

We immediately changed our tone to, “oh, our ‘coach’ just sprays beta at us and just helps out when he can…” then we all laughed.

The climbing couple this gym coach is helping out are climbing and leading 5.11c. They want to move up to 5.11d and beyond. 5.11d at our gym is a big jump in difficulty. The holds get very small, high stepping small sloper chips and turning or liebacking every move on overhanging faces or cracks.

5.11c is much easier, has rest holds and more obvious movements.

What would any of you folks recommend for improving?

I'm sorry if this sounds trite, but it really is simple:  Find what is holding *you* back (or your client, in the case of coaches) and focus on that.  There is no one-size-fits-all.

I could elaborate, but what's the point?

Edited to add:  I just read the responses before mine.  I think the fact that the first two responses you got each make conflicting (but equally valid) claims about the key to improving, I think proves my point.

Cheers,

GO

GabeO wrote:

I'm sorry if this sounds trite, but it really is simple:  Find what is holding *you* back (or your client, in the case of coaches) and focus on that.  There is no one-size-fits-all.

I could elaborate, but what's the point?

GO

Agree, this is very true and this philosophy has helped me. The coach was just curious what we did to improve?

So, what have you done to improve?

GabeO wrote:

I'm sorry if this sounds trite, but it really is simple:  Find what is holding *you* back (or your client, in the case of coaches) and focus on that.  There is no one-size-fits-all.

I could elaborate, but what's the point?

GO

One size that fits all after a certain age is not having/creating injuries, they heal too slowly and can cause permanent future problems. 

Use it or lose it,  KISS,  make sure it's fun and not a chore!

got out sport climbing with isa yesterday. Beautiful fall day. 

it was cool enough we could safely bring the Bern and leave him in the van. 

which was ok by him as  he slept in the big bed and got to do the dishes. 

Li Hu wrote:

Agree, this is very true and this philosophy has helped me. The coach was just curious what we did to improve?

So, what have you done to improve?

Here are things that have been helpful recently:

• Keep up with the PT for existing issues, and address new issues when they arise, before they become debilitating.  I have ones I do for sciatica, lower back pain, elbow nerve entrapment, elbow tendonitis, and knee issues
• Train consistently
• Stop most of my hangboarding, as it creates more problems than it solves.
• Spend time climbing with with people stronger than me.
• Right now I have found that my training has gotten my power and my endurance to be more than adequate for the project I'm working on at Rumney (Journey to a Mushroom Planet), but my core strength and my power-endurance are inadequate.  So I'm shifting my training to focus more on those.  This means less time running laps on 5.11 and lower routes (endurance), less time projecting hard boulder problems (power), and less time training finger strength on the hangboard.  Instead, I'll focus a little more time on things like 4x4s for power-endurance, and core workouts on the hangboard.
• I also think that repeating some of the harder boulder problems to gain finesse (what I'll call the J Gill method) will teach me a lot about climbing more efficiently and picking up subtle techniques at a hard (for me) level.

At other times in the past, other things would have been much more useful to my goals, so only a few of these would even be helpful for a past or future me, much less anyone else.

Cheers,

GO

M M wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what you could mean by "traditional " when it comes to recipes and cooking. Traditional as in Italian traditional I can understand but even Italian varies a ton from north to south.  

Or sorry, I forget that my sense of humor doesn't come across in writing to people who haven't met me.  I was actually making gentle fun of exactly that point, that a food writer would think there was one traditional way to make an Italian meatball, and was surprised that an Italian Grandmother would have a different recipe from what they had seen before.  Although both of my Italian Grandmothers did use the soaked bread method. One was from the area near the Tre Cime, the other was from near Rome, but I'm sure there are areas where breadcrumbs are traditional. I have to say though, a long time ago when I made my first visit to Rome, I was surprised that the traditional gnocchi there are made with flour and not riced potato.

Maybe accident reports before bed is a bad idea!

Yes definitely a very very stupid idea! Making fun of myself, but that also did not come across in writing!

Ok, brief change of topic. Here's a seasonal pop quiz. Engineer types are especially encouraged to respond:

What do you get when you divide the circumference of a jack o’lantern by its diameter?

Pumpkin pi

Pretty good for a non-engineer, eh?

Edit to below: Well, you know what they say about a broken clock...or a blind squirrel...etc...

^^^

And pretty fast too! Nice (and, obviously, the correct response).

Beautiful weekend in the Gunks and Catskills.  Climbed 2 days and avoided the fall weekend madding crowds by biking in the Catskills Sat and Sunday.  Here are a few more pics courtesy of MD to prove I still climb.

Jan Mc wrote:

If I wanted to climb harder, I would work on endurance over all else.  Most people are strong enough to climb harder than their max, and especially in the gym, are held back by their lack of endurance.  A 12a is a LOT easier if you are still fresh at the crux instead of already exhausted.

I’m often strong enough to do the move and my endurance is great. I often even work endurance in a bouldering gym my doing laps of boulders, sometimes up to three or four times without getting off. But it’s my head that holds me back on lead. I climb way harder on TR than I climb on lead or bouldering, because even a fall off a boulder at a gym can hurt my knees.