Discretionary Ethics at Cathedral

Though there’s another natural anchor possibility atop They Died Laughing, the big bong in the small right-facing crack/corner is now gone.  I mean, if the pendulum can swing that far one way, I might as well place a discretionary bolt or two to balance out the egos (said in jest, of course.)

Hey Chris,  for what it's worth, I definitely always use the crack in the pedestal block above 'they died laughing'.  The rope runs better over the edge and the gear is straightforward. To me it doesn't seem like that piton was particularly dire.  Replacing that bong probably isn't a big deal if people want it and use that spot for an anchor even though I'd feel fine not replacing that one.

However, it sounds like you want to have a conversation about a bolted anchor up there?

There used to be a two bolt anchor.  That helped facilitate things, as does the bolted anchor on top of the 5.6 that’s used for guiding all the time. Just seems inconsistent to me, that’s all. 

Bolt anchor on top on the Child's Play 5.6, bolt anchor on top of the roof aka the corner 5.8... no bolt anchor on they died laughing. Seems inconsistent to me. 

I’d say there’s about 100% chance of it getting chopped because we can’t have nice things.

Christian Donkey wrote:

I’d say there’s about 100% chance of it getting chopped because we can’t have nice things.

Oh, we can have nice things so long as they’re approved by the clergy. 

Cathedral is an inconsistent cliff, that is true.  The routes there have a diversity of character and that's definitely something I like about the place.  I think if we want to have a discussion about an anchor on the top of 'they died laughing' we should probably just focus on that route.  There are many routes ok the cliff where gear anchors are needed and I definitely appreciate that there's at least a few routes at the north end where you have to use that skill.  

And it's true that at cathedral there are many two bolt anchors in spots that would also take gear anchors.  I think to appreciate cathedral is to relish in the diversity and inconsistency of the different routes and styles that are found there.

I don’t understand why, modern anchor ethics and practices can’t apply cathedral, except that there’s a few people who think someone  died and made them God. It would actually move traffic out of there more quickly because you wouldn’t have to break down a trad anchor, walk over to the rap anchor , rap  off where  people are  often climbing below, etc. plus eventually that tree is gonna die from people walking on its roots. Just my two Cents. I know that opinions are like A holes and everybody has one ,that’s mine.

I really appreciate Nate’s acknowledgement of the inconsistencies that are spread across Cathedral and his appreciation of the diversity that the place presents.  Putting a lens to the cliff, you quickly realize that the ethics are all over the place.  Putting those ethics in time and context can help to explain them, but they still sometimes leave you wondering.

In general though, the cliff seems to have a tendency to offer a bolted anchor when it is needed (no gear available), or at least when it is a huge pain to not have one.  The only North End I have ever known is a North End without bolted anchors on top of They Died or Bird’s Nest and looking at it with that perspective, it just seems like it works.  It definitely took me a few visits to figure out how to work those anchors well, but that’s okay.  It’s Cathedral.  No easy buckets.  Climbing is hard.

I have always loved that folks used to refer to the North End as “The Practice Slab” and I’ve always gotten a good chuckle out of that - pretty steep slab, I’d say!  But be it for crack climbing skills, pushing the grades on well-protected routes, or building gear anchors and thinking about transitions, it is an awesome practice area.  Gear anchors exist in the world, why can’t they also exist at the crag?

Thinking about new bolts, I suppose we should ask “what is gained?” by adding them.  My personal take is that we need an answer that goes deeper than just “convenience” or “in other places, there would be bolts here”. 

Thanks for offering your thoughts, Grant.

If time and place are the context needed to help better understand this inconsistency, then a crag such as the North End experiencing paradigm shifts should also be on that continuum.  

I’d agree that They Died never really needed the two bolt anchor it had years ago, but to that end, do the two pins above Birds Nest need to be removed, as well?  Other options exist.  It’s a slippery slope, that’s for sure…one worth revisiting occasionally. 

Someone did install anchors for an instant at the top of They Died Laughing and they came down so quick very few people knew that they were there. Many years ago, there was a meeting about exactly this issue, and I believe it was decided, no permanent anchors. Perhaps Brad White or Al Hospers can give further details of what happened as I think they were present or perhaps by another local that participated could respond.

Grant Simmons wrote:

I really appreciate Nate’s acknowledgement of the inconsistencies that are spread across Cathedral and his appreciation of the diversity that the place presents.  Putting a lens to the cliff, you quickly realize that the ethics are all over the place.  Putting those ethics in time and context can help to explain them, but they still sometimes leave you wondering.

In general though, the cliff seems to have a tendency to offer a bolted anchor when it is needed (no gear available), or at least when it is a huge pain to not have one.  The only North End I have ever known is a North End without bolted anchors on top of They Died or Bird’s Nest and looking at it with that perspective, it just seems like it works.  It definitely took me a few visits to figure out how to work those anchors well, but that’s okay.  It’s Cathedral.  No easy buckets.  Climbing is hard.

I have always loved that folks used to refer to the North End as “The Practice Slab” and I’ve always gotten a good chuckle out of that - pretty steep slab, I’d say!  But be it for crack climbing skills, pushing the grades on well-protected routes, or building gear anchors and thinking about transitions, it is an awesome practice area.  Gear anchors exist in the world, why can’t they also exist at the crag?

Thinking about new bolts, I suppose we should ask “what is gained?” by adding them.  My personal take is that we need an answer that goes deeper than just “convenience” or “in other places, there would be bolts here”. 

Sounds like there is a consistent ethic at Cathedral but sport climbers insist on breaking it.

Why is consistency needed or desired? 

Hey Chris.  I think that you're right in that it is worth revisiting the layout and flow of the cliffs and adjusting over time, as needed, but I guess I just don't personally see what it is with this situation that necessitates a change.  Maybe I'm just not quite sure what the paradigm shift has been... Is it just that climbers now commonly assume that there will be bolted anchors on top of a single pitch route?  If that is the case, is it the crag that needs to change, or the assumption of bolts?  I also might be missing the point here...  Happy to hear what you meant by that.

As far as Bird's Nest goes, I think that as those pins age and it comes time to yank them out, we probably don't need to pound new ones back in.  Modern gear works well in there and we can adjust our flow by bringing two more pieces of gear to the top and building an anchor with that.  But I don't see the need to remove them immediately.  They connect us to the past and can help inform decisions about thoughtful ways to move forward.

On a relevant tangent, if folks aren't familiar with the bolt meeting that took place last summer, here is a summary of the takeaways.  The long and short of it is that a large part of the local community favors preserving the character of routes and practicing restraint when considering the addition of new bolts.  Not that there isn't a time and a place for new bolts, but just that many really see the relative lack of bolts as something unique and worth preserving.

Not that I’m part of the North Conway community but I have climbed there for 35 years. I am not favor of adding new bolts to existing routes.

I am, however, in favor of bolted anchors to preserve trees, and also to make for faster descents. Both in an effort to keep traffic moving and in the event of the need for a quick evacuation. I don’t see that the walk off trail needs more traffic. It only creates more erosion. Also, there is no walk off from the practice wall, as there is from the top of the barber wall.
I also find it ironic that many members of the North Conway climbing community has felt it acceptable to add fully bolted routes to other cliffs.

I guess I didn’t fully read the above thread, and did not realize that there is now a bolted anchor on that ledge. My bad

Grant Simmons wrote:

Hey Chris.  I think that you're right in that it is worth revisiting the layout and flow of the cliffs and adjusting over time, as needed, but I guess I just don't personally see what it is with this situation that necessitates a change.  Maybe I'm just not quite sure what the paradigm shift has been... Is it just that climbers now commonly assume that there will be bolted anchors on top of a single pitch route?  If that is the case, is it the crag that needs to change, or the assumption of bolts?  I also might be missing the point here...  Happy to hear what you meant by that.

As far as Bird's Nest goes, I think that as those pins age and it comes time to yank them out, we probably don't need to pound new ones back in.  Modern gear works well in there and we can adjust our flow by bringing two more pieces of gear to the top and building an anchor with that.  But I don't see the need to remove them immediately.  They connect us to the past and can help inform decisions about thoughtful ways to move forward.

On a relevant tangent, if folks aren't familiar with the bolt meeting that took place last summer, here is a summary of the takeaways.  The long and short of it is that a large part of the local community favors preserving the character of routes and practicing restraint when considering the addition of new bolts.  Not that there isn't a time and a place for new bolts, but just that many really see the relative lack of bolts as something unique and worth preserving.

I guess I’m a little confused by why a piece of fixed gear like the bong on top of They Died was removed and the pins on top of Birds Nest weren’t.  I’m not for the addition of a bolted anchor (again, been building anchors there for over two decades), but I am for explanations.

In the end, it’s all climbing. 

How do you know the bong was removed Chris?  I have pulled many a pin out by hand. 

Also, all of pins mentioned "should" be part of an anchor and "should" not make up its whole.  There are better places to build anchors on They Died and Birds Nest than where the pins are, so I would say they are not needed.  

Both of these routes are trad routes so it's not inconceivable that you will have a trad gear with you, and you possess the ability to build a trad anchor. I don't think that is a big ask if someone makes the decision to climb any of these routes.

June as a route developer I fail to see the irony.  Can you elaborate?  I think you are comparing apples and oranges.  If I'm developing a sport route, why wouldn't I develop it as such?  Those of us the put new routes up in the North Conway area are really picking at the carcass. All the climbers that came before me did a good job of developing all the routes that go on gear. Hence most of us put up sport routes. 

Sam 

I just don’t see the problem with a bolted  anchors at the top of a trad  pitch. Especially if there’s not a walk off.  there is less impact at the top of the cliff with bolted anchors. I’m just a tree hugger.

When some of these routes were originally developed, they were only a handful of climbers in the area. Now A hundred people might climb a route in a given week (if it doesn’t rain all the time.)

I’m not advocating, adding bolts to routes I’m advocating for bolted anchors.

Even in the Gunks  a historic trad climbing area , the preserve has finally embraced, bolted, rappel routes. And many pitches have bolted anchors at the top.

why is it OK to pepper every other crag in New Hampshire with bolts but cathedral is sacred and shouldn’t have anchors?  It was OK to retro bolt Humphries and personally I think some of those routes are fun, but I wouldn’t want bolts next to a crack. 

Also worth considering-   The person cleaning the gear anchor has to walk un-protected across the ledge to the rappel station,   This is definitely not the safest thing.

I just want to put it out there that I pretty much learned to lead trad at Cathedral (not that long ago) and I feel that having to build anchors at the North End was a pretty valuable part of my learning. I learned about saving gear, getting creative with the gear I had, making choices about anchor location, all that good stuff. Totally just a personal experience, but it seems like a valuable one for other climbers to get to have as well. I don’t think that just because there are more climbers out there means that we should prevent new climbers from getting to have cool learning experiences. I get that there’s a time and a place for bolted anchors, I just worry about what gets lost if they are seen as the default.