Photos of BEAUTIFUL HARDWARE pt2

Which the keen eyed will notice is an AI cloned picture of the original:-

https://www.team-tough.com/slb-4

https://www.team-tough.com/slb-4
=)

Jim Titt wrote:

Which the keen eyed will notice is an AI cloned picture of the original:-

https://www.team-tough.com/slb-4

I was going to say, I've never seen an SLB with the standard etched on the eye like that! But I thought maybe that's how you do it for the european market, and we just don't get it with team tough US distribution?

Is this a knock-off of the SLB, or is climbing bolt supplies an authorized distributor for SLBs?

I didn't mark it. They were our importer for Asia until Covid killed the air-freight routes, since then there's been no activity.

The SLB in the picture is not a fake 'AI' bolt. The information is laser engraved into the eye and I'm not the only manufacturer to use this method to display information which is quite reasonably expected on fixed hardware.

Climbing Bolt Supplies was an importer for Bolt Products until product could n't be supplied from January 2022 onwards.

Francis Haden wrote:

The SLB in the picture is not a fake 'AI' bolt. The information is laser engraved into the eye and I'm not the only manufacturer to use this method to display information which is quite reasonably expected on fixed hardware.

Climbing Bolt Supplies was an importer for Bolt Products until product could n't be supplied from January 2022 onwards.

Thanks for clarifying Francis.  So are the SLBs and Twist bolts on Climbing Bolt Supplies old-stock Bolt Product bolts from before January 2022 which your company laser etched, or are they manufactured completely separately from Bolt Products but using their design?   Or are they still manufactured by bolt products but just procured through different channels?

Slight drift here but just a heads up on the SLBs - there have been a lot of them placed locally around Lander, WY during rebolting efforts and I recommend notching them even though they have the diagonal end - if they get an air bubble at the end they will turn into spinners quite easily. We have had this show up several times on multiple routes rebolted by different equippers, best to insure longevity with a notch. 

The good news is you can just spin them out quite easily to re-drill and replace if this happens.

Nate Liles wrote:

Slight drift here but just a heads up on the SLBs - there have been a lot of them placed locally around Lander, WY during rebolting efforts and I recommend notching them even though they have the diagonal end - if they get an air bubble at the end they will turn into spinners quite easily. We have had this show up several times on multiple routes rebolted by different equippers, best to insure longevity with a notch. 

The good news is you can just spin them out quite easily to re-drill and replace if this happens.

That just sounds like improper glue instal to me. The grooves in the Bolt Products SLB have great mechanical connection to the glue. That is a big advantage to the SLB that they dont require notching. It does make them much more easilly upgraded if they are not notched. 

timothy fisher wrote:

That just sounds like improper glue instal to me. The grooves in the Bolt Products SLB have great mechanical connection to the glue. That is a big advantage to the SLB that they dont require notching. It does make them much more easilly upgraded if they are not notched. 

This is the first time I’ve seen someone bring up the conversation of upgrading stainless glue ins in the future. Do we have an expectation of lifespan of glue ins? Shouldn’t it be like 100+++ years? Always makes me curious how many glue ins will end up getting replaced due to the rock they’re placed in degrading too much vs themselves degrading

Nate Liles wrote:

Slight drift here but just a heads up on the SLBs - there have been a lot of them placed locally around Lander, WY during rebolting efforts and I recommend notching them even though they have the diagonal end - if they get an air bubble at the end they will turn into spinners quite easily. We have had this show up several times on multiple routes rebolted by different equippers, best to insure longevity with a notch. 

The good news is you can just spin them out quite easily to re-drill and replace if this happens.

It would be very interesting to see the bolt after it was pulled out - to see if it was the bolt’s adherence to the glue or the glue to the rock had failed. I would suspect a poorly cleaned hole and it’s the glue to rock interface that is failing. I’ve only instance that I have heard of glue ins “spinning” is when they have circumferential grooves machined into the shaft. So the bolt can spin - while still being mechanically secured in the hole.  See below: 

The Bolt Products SLBs shouldn’t have this issue, since their grooves are spiral cut and couldn’t spin without actually moving out of the hole.  

Nathan P wrote:

It would be very interesting to see the bolt after it was pulled out - to see if it was the bolt’s adherence to the glue or the glue to the rock had failed. I would suspect a poorly cleaned hole and it’s the glue to rock interface that is failing. I’ve only instance that I have heard of glue ins “spinning” is when they have circumferential grooves machined into the shaft. So the bolt can spin - while still being mechanically secured in the hole.  See below: 

The Bolt Products SLBs shouldn’t have this issue, since their grooves are spiral cut and couldn’t spin without actually moving out of the hole.  

There's very little "adherence" between Stainless Steel and many types of epoxy... 

Nathan P wrote:

It would be very interesting to see the bolt after it was pulled out - to see if it was the bolt’s adherence to the glue or the glue to the rock had failed. I would suspect a poorly cleaned hole and it’s the glue to rock interface that is failing. I’ve only instance that I have heard of glue ins “spinning” is when they have circumferential grooves machined into the shaft. So the bolt can spin - while still being mechanically secured in the hole.  See below: 

The Bolt Products SLBs shouldn’t have this issue, since their grooves are spiral cut and couldn’t spin without actually moving out of the hole.  

I've posted this information on these topics multiple times, so this is the Reader's Digest version.  (Young people can Google "Reader's Digest".)

1) Certain construction glues do NOT chemically bond (adhere) to stainless or titanium (bolt above) but hold via mechanical means, like a nut on a threaded shaft.  These are sometimes referred to as "binding mortars", e.g. Hilti C-100 and others.  In this case the bolt may rotate slightly after the glue has dried.  If the bolt has spiral threads it might be unscrewed, so notching the bolt would be a good thing.  If, as shown above, the threads are concentric then the bolt will not unscrew and does not need to be notched, but because of their experience with expansion bolts some people freak-out if the bolt has ~1 degree of rotation.

2) Other construction glues WILL chemically bond (adhere) to stainless and titanium (e.g. Hilti RE-500V3) well enough to prevent any movement even after being fallen on many times.  All the bolts I'm familiar with are strong enough to not need notching with a good glue.

Comment: I've seen too many glue-in bolts notched too deep.  This makes them harder to clip and the biner can get wedged in a non-vertical position, possibly breaking in a fall.  

Question: Any Maple Canyon climbers here?  I was there for the first time last week and found that a good number of the routes had glue-ins placed upside-down.  WTF?

John Byrnes wrote:

Question: Any Maple Canyon climbers here?  I was there for the first time last week and found that a good number of the routes had glue-ins placed upside-down.  WTF?

It's not just Maple Canyon. I've seen this in areas throughout UT, but never outside. I've always assumed that they're probably still more than safe enough, and that any concerns are limited to just carabiner-bolt geometry interactions, but it would be good to hear that from the more authoritative sources on this thread.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/message/118735353

That link is Jim Titt writing a few years ago:

The bond strength is unimportant, we consider it to be zero and so does the standard (and the fact you can get clickies shows this is correct, they normally occur when the differential expansion of the bolt and rock causes the resin bond to the shaft to fail).

Because the specific model name SLB is used in Nate's post and because he says "you can just spin (screw?) them out" we are talking about the Bolt products SLBs I assume. I am wondering if some of them are the 8mm ones. It is very difficult to get glue in the bottom of a 3/8 x 3 1/2 " deep hole. That requires an extension to the typical nozzel. 

Chris Stocking wrote:

It's not just Maple Canyon. I've seen this in areas throughout UT, but never outside. I've always assumed that they're probably still more than safe enough, and that any concerns are limited to just carabiner-bolt geometry interactions, but it would be good to hear that from the more authoritative sources on this thread.

Besides the geometry as you mention above, a correctly placed bolt should shed the rope should a bight come across it in a fall.  

Nathan P wrote:

It would be very interesting to see the bolt after it was pulled out - to see if it was the bolt’s adherence to the glue or the glue to the rock had failed. I would suspect a poorly cleaned hole and it’s the glue to rock interface that is failing. I’ve only instance that I have heard of glue ins “spinning” is when they have circumferential grooves machined into the shaft. So the bolt can spin - while still being mechanically secured in the hole.  See below: 

The Bolt Products SLBs shouldn’t have this issue, since their grooves are spiral cut and couldn’t spin without actually moving out of the hole.  

The bolts can be spun completely out of the hole and the steel is clean, adhesive is all still bonded to the rock. This is of course due to the spiral grooves allowing it to be spun out. I have also replaced glue ins that have circumferential grooves and are spinning due to not being notched (fixe - improper placement obviously) and those require grinder + core drill to extract/reuse the hole. 

timothy fisher wrote:

Because the specific model name SLB is used in Nate's post and because he says "you can just spin (screw?) them out" we are talking about the Bolt products SLBs I assume. I am wondering if some of them are the 8mm ones. It is very difficult to get glue in the bottom of a 3/8 x 3 1/2 " deep hole. That requires an extension to the typical nozzel. 

Yes this is correct and likely why we see this popping up.

timothy fisher wrote:

That just sounds like improper glue instal to me. The grooves in the Bolt Products SLB have great mechanical connection to the glue. That is a big advantage to the SLB that they dont require notching. It does make them much more easilly upgraded if they are not notched. 

With the idea being that the diagonal end of the bolt prevents rotation when fully surrounded by adhesive you are technically correct, the problem is that if you have an air pocket/bubble in the back of the hole this will be be a problem - especially we have seen this with the 8mm due to nozzle size. 

Nate Liles wrote:

With the idea being that the diagonal end of the bolt prevents rotation when fully surrounded by adhesive you are technically correct, the problem is that if you have an air pocket/bubble in the back of the hole this will be be a problem - especially we have seen this with the 8mm due to nozzle size. 

Find a good quality big straw like what you would get for a thick milkshake, cut a section long enough to reach the bottom of the hole and jamb it carefully on the end of the nozzle.  Tape it on really well with duct tape since it will have to withstand the pressure, same as if you were gluing a flake only don't flatten the end.