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Thoughts on this new guidebook?
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There is a new regional guidebook "Let's Rock: Washington" making the rounds on facebook groups and Kickstarter. I think the book has a solid premise, catering to new climbers looking for sport routes 5.10d and below, however I'm concerned about the publication of local areas that are still under development, or have been intentionally un-published for a variety of reasons. I'm worried that directing entry level climbers to these spots has real safety and access concerns that have not been taken into account. I've sent the author a similar message, but I was curious about thoughts from the MP crowd as well. |
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IMHO focused, select or mini guides are lacking. I looked through what the author is trying to publish and think it will be poorly done. The title says Washington but includes Cuba ??? WTF?? Sounds more like a travel diary than a guide. |
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certainly seems a bit masturbatory. i think it would do better by doing multiple volumes that are focused on very specific geographies. and i'm not sure what it's really encouraging - lots of travel from new climbers who don't understand safety and access issues? this book could become a scarlet letter if you ever saw folks at the crag carrying it around... |
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It is incredibly upsetting. Someone who is not actively developing the crag, simply does not have a bigger picture of the crag in mind. People show up to walls, they dont think about trundling, trails, or access problems. I would actually remove bolt hangers and laminate somekind of message saying the crag is under construction and not safe and leave it near the entrance. |
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hmmm, it's kind of hard to tell with this one. one of the things i saw right off the bat is that it includes fossil rock (near mt rainier, washington). the last i time i went there it was on private property with a ton of no trespassing signs, etc. i think this fits in with what trev puppy love is saying. i am definitely more of a comprehensive guide to an area kind of person (although i have shit ton of guidebooks ranging from couple-page pamphlets for obscure areas to stewart green's europe book, and everything in between). that being said, i think this book would have a pretty large target audience, ie moderate climbers who want a distilled list of the better routes at a ton of different areas. he would probably do better renaming it something other than "let's rock: washington", as washington seems to be just a part of it. |
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This project does seem ill conceived on several levels. So here's the million dollar question: How does anyone get the points listed above across to the author without making it seem like they are just hating on his plan for a guidebook? I'd be pretty shocked if, at this stage, the author was open to changing his project so drastically. I mean how often are you going to get to put out a book that covers Washington area crags, Red Rocks, and Cuba? |
Luke Bertelsen wrote: Maybe we remind him how the pacific northwest bouldering book went and how he is essentially doing the same thing. |
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@Oren Sounds like there are some legitimate environmental concerns at the areas you reference. If you're planning on contacting the author I'd personally suggest you check the hyperbole at the door regarding someone signing your painting with their name. We don't own climbing areas, even when we are the ones putting in time, money, and work for what is essentially a community resource. I sincerely hope there might be a path forward with the author where he takes some of these concerns and the traffic his book might bring under consideration. |
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Beyond all the annoyance that someone is dropping your crag before you do, there is real concern I have with some of the Tieton areas in this book. First off; without talking to the developers how do you know the route names and grades and FA info? How do you know about approaches and descents? How do you know if the trails can sustain large groups of people, if there are any access concerns, if the cliff is still under development? It is damn hard to trundle blocks with a bunch of people around, and it is much easier to put a trail in than it is to repair one that has severely eroded. We put in allot of work getting these areas ready and Bruce has never come out to help, nor has he offered to put any money towards helping us maintain these areas. Or even asked how we feel about this information being out there. |
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Walter Jordan you hit the nail on the head. He has included several of my areas and there are Access issues under way. Really needed to talk with developers first. He also has refused to answer or contact all that have reached out. |
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I noticed two folks here are concerned about an area (Kemper and Walter), and I've been contacted by two folks via email about concerns about one of the areas in that book that was just posted here (Elk Camp, near Tieton in WA State). Has anyone emailed him asking him directly about changing what he posted or removing it? The posting here for Elk Camp was done by Brock Hikyx, who should be reachable via his personal page. |
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A few of us are concerned about areas in the Tieton, however there are several others (Cle Elum, mineral wall, etc) that others have mentioned as well. In general I'm inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt, in this case assuming this was a massive oversight by someone new to climbing and guide book making, not an intentional choice to jeopardize local areas and disregard developers. I think it's fair to give him a couple days to respond, but unfortunately what I've been hearing from others is making me question his intentions. |
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And now this lovely exchange on the Kickstarter Page: Me: PLEASE READ IF BACKING THIS PROJECT: Be aware that the author of this book has made no efforts to connect with or consider the developers of many of the "new" areas listed in the table of contents. This raises major safety concerns for climbers, and has the potential to jeopardize access to these, as well as many other climbing areas in our beloved state of Washington. Just to clarify, developers are the people that spend our own time, money and energy cleaning and bolting new routes, creating trails and opening new areas for YOU to enjoy. Without the work of people like us, this guidebook (and the routes you climb) would simply not exist. As a guidebook author myself (for an area in AZ) I know first hand what it takes to create something of this scale. While I support the idea of this project, I believe the blatant disregard for potential impacts on local areas, and the clear safety concerns about leading people to un-finished crags threatens to jeopardize the positivity this guide was designed to create. If you believe developers, and the interests of our growing climbing community should be included as part of the process, join me in asking that Bruce remove several minor areas from his guide before publication. I do not believe it is too much to ask to respect the work of those who you will be profiting from with such a step. Bruce: I have climbed every route in this book or been there when it was climbed and have judged its safety accordingly. You seem rather emphatic about my reviews of areas without ever having read my material, especially seeing as it has not even been published yet. I'm sorry I have not been able to gain permission from every single person who placed every single bolt but that is a standard no writer could every be held to. Perhaps you should consider your 'locals only' ethic to be redundant and just enjoy the sport for what it is - climbing rock and having fun. Peace brother, no matter how many acronyms you add after your name. |
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My Response: Bruce, I have no doubt that you have climbed extensively as part of this project and connected with many people along the way. I said nothing about your reviews of areas in my message. If we had ever met, you would know the reason I put up routes is to share the joy of climbing with as many people as possible. Locals only is something I just don't do. Ask my climbing partners and they'll tell you a stranger smiling on a 5.8 I put up is the best compliment i can get. This has nothing to do with secret crags or locals only. When I talk about safety I'm talking about cleaning off blocks at the top of a cliff deep in the forrest, and having a group of unsuspecting climbers aiming for a GPS coordinate and ending up in the line of fire. I don't think this is an insane concept. You don't see kids playing on unfinished playgrounds or climbing gyms opening their doors before they have the pads down. It's the same thing. When I talk about access concerns I'm talking about crossing or being on private property, and finding creative solutions before parking concerns arise. I'm talking about creating sustainable trails and belay platforms that can resist erosion and preserve the natural environment, while showing land managers that we respect the resource. There's a lot that goes into creating climbing areas, and if you open them up before they're ready there's a lot to loose. My intention in this was not to be a personal attack, but rather to check in as a fellow guidebook author and developer and make sure you are aware of the impact this book will have. I truly support this project and the stoke it will build in the community, I'm just asking that we don't have a house warming party before the house is finished. |
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Good luck with getting any positive outcome regarding this. On the Seattle climbers Facebook group he defended himself with the ridiculous analogy that the local developers are like the “Wall Street elite” and he’s the redditer standing up for the little guy. |
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The original FB thread has been deleted. I took a screenshot of one response.  |
K Go wrote: I want to believe his cat walked across the keyboard in that first message but unfortunately that seems doubtful |
Auden Alsop wrote: Hope he hires an editor. |
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This is the third message I have read of his. I think his cat is his editor. We can't change his tactics or convince him of the potential impact he will create. The developer give it and the developer take it away. I plan on removing ALL lower bolts on my routes until I deam my crag ready for public consumption and access has been completed. At least when people show up at my crags that he has published they won't be able to get hurt, misinformation and word will get out that his book is bogus. We as developers have a duty to finish routes and crags to a certain safety standard before opening. The last thing I ever want to hear is that someone got hurt at my crag because of a poorly cleaned route. For some reason he thinks that because he found out about "secret" areas he has the responsibility to let everyone know. They are not secret they are under development. |
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A few years ago we developed a small crag in Icicle Canyon. We cleaned out cracks for gear placement and holds and added two lead bolts on faces. We also placed top anchor of bolts and hangers. This area was going to be included in Viktor Kramar's upcoming guide book. ( and it was). Much to our surprise, Bruce MacLachlan named the routes, rated them and made a photo topo. Then posted that on Mountain Project as if they were his routes. We thought that very strange......! When called out on that he gave us credit for the routes. Interestingly, his topo had the bolts in the wrong location and his ratings were not consistent with Icicle ratings. I say this about the ratings with a background of developing 200+ routes in Leavenworth area. Jim Phillips |
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Yikes. So, how did this guy find all these new crags to post them? Just by wandering around...or I assume he heard about them from someone? |
