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Z4s vs Aliens for Yosemite pin scars?

Original Post
Elaine Gilstrom · · SF Bay Area, CA · Joined May 2019 · Points: 75

Hey,

I'm currently working on building a rack to climb the shield and I am trying to decide if I should go for Aliens or Z4s for the pin scars that are too small for Totems but haven't found any discussions about it out there. What is the current consensus if there is one for aid? Or am I missing an option that is better than both the Aliens or Z4s?

Looking at the range comparisons on camparator.com, it seems like smallest few Aliens are the way to go, but I've also heard a lot of conflicting things about Aliens and a decent amount of conflicting things about the Z4s.



What do you all think?

Thank you to anyone who is willing to share their insights! :)

(As a side note, the full rack of cams I'm planning on taking up is: 2x BD C4 0.5-3, 1x BD C4 0.4 and 4, 2x Totems 0.5-1.8, 2x offset cams and normal cams smaller than black totem)
Lance Colley · · Yosemite Valley · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 80

My guess is there is little discussion on the topic just because the Z4's are so new and the park has been closed and previous to the closure the weather wasn't great. I've placed a few Z4's in yosemite cracks and I think they'll be an alright cam for yosemite pin scars but I don't think they'll beat the aliens. The small offset aliens are sweet, yes they aren't as durable as the X4 or the Z4(assumption)., but they stick like crazy! After a dozen yosemite walls i've ripped a good share of X4's but haven't yet ripped an alien...yet!

C Limenski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 15

I have not climbed a dozen walls in the valley. That said ...

Offset master cams all day

Elaine Gilstrom · · SF Bay Area, CA · Joined May 2019 · Points: 75

I didn't even realize offset master cams were a thing. I have no idea how I missed them until now. I just updated the chart to include master cams in the mix:


It looks like the aliens still take the cake for range, but the master cams are still very competitive in that aspect. They also all have the same strength ratings too.

It is hard to argue with the price on the master cams as well. How well do they stick when compared to the Aliens?

After reading Lance's comment I was thinking about picking up the small Z4s and Aliens and just seeing how they compare myself, but now I am thinking about maybe getting the master cams to compare instead. Does anyone else have opinions on the master cams?
Creed Archibald · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 1,016

I’ve only done one wall in the valley, but are there pin scars smaller than black totem? I didn’t find any. 

C Limenski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 15

I came up on the offset mastercam recommendation from Mark Hudon somewhere on this site or his website.
So far I see no reason to doubt him, they have been great and ‘sticky’ for me. (Not as sticky as the aliens!)

I have broken an alien cam (fixe revo) loading with body weight. It was repairable (trigger wire shredded) but a bummer and I wouldn’t want to deal with that on a wall

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

Placements smaller than the black totem will take hand placed beaks or offset nuts/brassies.

But if one wants a cam in those lower sizes...

Z4s aren't really any different from the X4s in terms of how they place and hold. Based upon my experience with X4s in those lower sizes, Aliens will be a bit better, less because of the placement and more because of how they deal with being loaded off-directionally like one does when standing on pieces in ladders. (Basically, X4s and Z4s kink very easily at the connection between the head and the stem when you stand on them whereas Aliens don't kink quite as much for some reason. Also Metolius offsets suffer from the same issue.)

When you're speaking to Aliens, the kind of alien you get matters. The old CCH aliens or the original Fixe aliens in those lower sizes have ridiculously wide heads when compared to today's cams in that size. The Fixe Alien Revolution offsets will have a smaller head width and actually a smaller range in their offsets than the Z4s

Ty Harlacker · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 231

It sounds like you've not climbed in Yosemite, let alone trad-climbed. Please excuse my presumptions and correct me if I'm wrong, but is your plan to buy a bunch of new gear and go climb a Yosemite A3 Grade V?  

Elaine Gilstrom · · SF Bay Area, CA · Joined May 2019 · Points: 75
Ty Harlacker wrote: It sounds like you've not climbed in Yosemite, let alone trad-climbed. Please excuse my presumptions and correct me if I'm wrong, but is your plan to buy a bunch of new gear and go climb a Yosemite A3 Grade V?  

You are right that I haven't climbed in yosemite yet and am new to trad and aid climbing, but my plan isn't as rash as what you've outlined. I'm planning to go in maybe 1-2 years (haven't set an exact date yet) and before I set off I plan to put in some serious millage to gain the skills I will need to climb the shield. This is more of a long term goal for me. I also live realatively close to Yosemite, so I will be able to get practice on much shorter routes in the area.


I am asking about this now because I am currently working on building my rack and rei is going to be having a sale on all bd products soon.
Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Four blue/yellow Metolius Offset Mastercams are the ticket for the Shield.
When I did it Totems were not a thing. I was in the 100% Totem bandwagon for a while until I came to the realization that the Metolius offset were superior in pinscars.  If I did it again tomorrow, I’d take three sets of the Metolius Offset cams.

For the record, I am sponsored by Metolius and I’ve never used any other true “offset” cam. Still, I’ve been around, I’ve made a few placements, I think my years of experience count for something.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
Mark Hudon wrote: Four blue/yellow Metolius Offset Mastercams are the ticket for the Shield.
When I did it Totems were not a thing. But even still, if I did it again tomorrow, I’d get a full set of the Metolius Offsets. 

I did the Shield back in ‘91 and we had 3 sets of blue and yellow TCUs, which worked really well.  I’d imagine that offsets would work that much better.

Marlin Thorman · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 2,415

When you are buying small cams for aid climbing you might think about getting different brands for your doubles (and triples) instead of just 2 sets of the same.  Last fall on the Muir, we had Aliens, Metolius, Totems, X4 offsets, C3's, and Kalias Nuco Offsets.  Sometimes an alien didn't fit well when a Metolius did or vise versa.  But I can say I that my favorite small cams were the Kalias Offsets and the C3s followed closely by the alien revolutions.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

I don’t really care for “Frankenstein “ racks like Marlin describes above but I don’t think it’s a bad idea.

Rob Dillon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 760

(Quoting myself here) Frankenracks are confusing mostly to the owners’ partners , but they’re not without certain advantages. Like, if your first blue alien doesn’t fit, then your second and third won’t either. Therefore, variety is your friend.

Matt Thomsen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 263
Mark Hudon wrote: I’ve never used any other true “offset” cam.

Mark, you have never placed an “offset“ Alien?!?

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Not exactly, I’ve used a few but I’m very in tune with the Metolius offsets and always reach for them first. 

In 2009, at the start of my third climbing career, my El Cap aid wall career, I placed and order with Metolius for some cams. They put me on Pro-form and I’ve been using their stuff ever since. I’m sort of a “this is the tool you get, learn how to use it” kind of guy and my experience over a dozen or more walls convinced me that they are very good tools.

Constantly search for the “best” shoes, the “best” cams, the best whatever, I feel, is a Sisphyian Task and never lets you stop and really learn the gear you have. I’ve never failed on a route or felt the route was unduly difficult because of the cams I was using.

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 342

One thing to consider about Totems over Master Cam off sets is the ability to turn the cam around and use the other side of the Totem because there are no "off set" lobes, you can't do that with an off set Master Cam.  To do the same with a Master Cam you would have to have a right and left hand off set of each cam.  Totems pull double duty in this respect acting like a off set and being able to flip it around.  I still carry some off set Master Cams on walls but they hardly get used near as much as the Totems.

Quinn Hatfield · · Los Angeles · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0
Mark Hudon wrote: I’m very in tune with the Metolius offsets and always reach for them first.

Feel the same way.. I love Totems.. but I just find the Metolius Offsets work so damn well.. 

Back-clean Metolius/Leave Totems 

Christian Hesch · · Morro Bay · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 55

interesting Quinn, I leave a totem because I want the peace of mind that comes from a secure piece. That said, my *only* aid experience is on the nose, where I will backclean totems and try to leave a dmm dragon2 in the more "perfect" placements, saving the totems for the funky placements. There's really only 2-3 cams under black totem size, so that makes life easy (metolius 00/0, Z4 .1/.2, and the totem basic blue/grn), and I also carry a red (2) dragonfly, which I've set a ladder on 2 lobes for fun. I guess C3's are nice but haven't managed to place one yet... but i'm also only climbing C1 (as a good aid noob should be! ;)

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981
Quinn Hatfield wrote:

Feel the same way.. I love Totems.. but I just find the Metolius Offsets work so damn well.. 

Back-clean Metolius/Leave Totems 

Lol, I backclean Totems and leave Metolius or bdel behind. 

NegativeK · · Nevada · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 40
Mark Hudon wrote: I’ve never failed on a route or felt the route was unduly difficult because of the cams I was using.

Yeah but you're Mark fucking Hudon.

;)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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