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Importance of using trad draws vs sport draws?

Original Post
Michael D · · Milwaukee, WI · Joined May 2018 · Points: 70

I'm new to trad climbing and am starting to buy gear but already have sport equipment.

I know trad draws have the advantage of helping isolate rope movement from placed pieces and have other advantages like being lightweight, but is it always required? For gear that is solidly placed and doesn't require being extended with an alpine draw is it still a bad idea to use sport draws?

Thanks for the replies!

Niccolo Gallio · · mainly Italy · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0
Michael D wrote: I'm new to trad climbing and am starting to buy gear but already have sport equipment.

I know trad draws have the advantage of helping isolate rope movement from placed pieces and have other advantages like being lightweight, but is it always required? For gear that is solidly placed and doesn't require being extended with an alpine draw is it still a bad idea to use sport draws?

Thanks for the replies!

brace yourself for a barrage of "it depends" answers..

John Reeve · · Durango, formely from TX · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 15

No, you don't always need to extend pieces.  You can either use a racking biner on a cam, or a quickdraw if you don't need a lot of extension.

FWIW, I personally wish that I had climbed on my partners gear while I was still figuring that stuff out.  There was no need to buy as much crap as I did as soon as I did.  Not that I regret having a nice rack... I've since gotten a lot of use out of that.  But in general, I feel like I'd have done better to climb on other folks racks and then build out what I knew I needed rather than building a rack, guessing, and just luckily ending up with an appropriate mix of draws.

Pat Light · · Charlottesville, VA · Joined Nov 2017 · Points: 0

A straight line splitter crack with a highly competent belayer and a correctly placed first piece will often see a leader clip directly to the racking carabiner of the cam.

In other (admittedly rare) circumstances, even a long alpine draw will not sufficiently reduce the pull on a delicately placed nut, and a leader might have to set another nut for upward pull and redirect the sling through the carabiner for that nut.

A standard sport draw lands somewhere between these two extremes. I carry some on my rack.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

If I understand the question correctly, it seems like you’re asking for NON-EXTENDED placements, is it ok to use a sport draw?  The answer is absolutely “yes,” and in fact they will be better than trad draws for this, as they’re more stable for hard clips.  Many people do bring up a combination of quick draws and alpine draws for this very reason; however, the beauty of the alpine (“trad”) draw is versatility; you can leave it as a regular draw or extend it if needed.

Marco Velo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 0

I’ll start with one observation. Generally, nuts require a draw with 2 biners. Cams, because they are already racked in a biner, may only require a draw with one biner ( though lots of people use a 2 biner draw). So, having the flexibility of an alpine draw with 1 or 2 biners can be an advantage, making it more likely to have the right draw for the pieces you actually place. Plus you can use the slings for building anchors if necessary.

ETA: So while you can use quickdraws in many instances, I think you are going to almost need alpine draws in lots of others. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Michael D wrote: I'm new to trad climbing and am starting to buy gear but already have sport equipment.

I know trad draws have the advantage of helping isolate rope movement from placed pieces and have other advantages like being lightweight, but is it always required? For gear that is solidly placed and doesn't require being extended with an alpine draw is it still a bad idea to use sport draws?

Thanks for the replies!

As a general rule always extend your placements, helps stop rope drag, walking gear, zippering.

Sport draws are for sport climbing.
Stu L · · Washington, DC · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0

Generally “sport draws” will be heavier but really easy to clip. Trad draws will be lighter and often a bit smaller. To me the key difference besides weight is flexibility. Yes you can extend a piece with a sport draw, but their dog bones tend to be stiffer and could be more likely to wiggle the piece, where you’re more likely to have a flexible dog bone on a trad draw. Alpine draws really are the most versatile and usually very light. I like to rack a few draws in addition to alpines in case I get pumped (I use Petzl Ange finesse). I find them easier to clip since the clipping biner stays put. 

Jcastleberry · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 192

Alpine draws are for people who like knitting with one hand. Always a tangled mess. Use shoulder slings and quickdraws. 

F Loyd · · Kennewick, WA · Joined Mar 2018 · Points: 808

EXTEND OR DIE!!! of rope drag.

Sam Skovgaard · · Port Angeles, WA · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 208

Short answer: yes, you can use sport draws while trad climbing.

Long answer: each piece has different amounts of extension needed: none for splitter cracks, tons for wandery routes for delicate pieces (you may need double length slings or multiple slings linked together in extreme cases).  If your needs fall on the low extension side, a sport draw is fine.

Artem Vee · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 708

Side note - you can use a micro trax to get rid of rope drag (and the weight of the rope) while you're on a long lead.

As many others have said, alpine draws are useful to reduce rope drag. 

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Artem Vasilyev wrote: Side note - you can use a micro trax to get rid of rope drag (and the weight of the rope) while you're on a long lead.

Are you talking about leaving it on a piece of pro, similar to how a device (often a Tibloc) is used in simulclimbing? Because that will do nothing to reduce the effort required to lift the rope. It will support the rope if you are motionless, or if you pull up a bunch of slack before making a tough move.

Artem Vee · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 708
Gunkiemike wrote:

Are you talking about leaving it on a piece of pro, similar to how a device (often a Tibloc) is used in simulclimbing? Because that will do nothing to reduce the effort required to lift the rope. It will support the rope if you are motionless, or if you pull up a bunch of slack before making a tough move.

When you feel rope drag is a little too much - you drop the micro trax onto the rope like you would when simuling and yank out the armfuls of slack you need for the next few moves. The micro trax will catch the weight of the rope below you, lifting it off of your harness - leaving you free to move around without any weight tugging on you. Super useful if you have cruxy or delicate bits ahead of you. Exactly how much slack you choose to give yourself, is entirely up to the situation and your own risk tolerance.

Without the micro trax, you cannot do this - and are forced to fight the rope drag, which as we all know, can really suck sometimes.

For example, I did this on a long lead yesterday (I was linking several pitches and used the trax to protect me from my second, if I did end up running out of rope and they started simuling behind me) and was happy to have the ability to eliminate my drag (and the weight of the rope) as I made my way up a friction slab.

Yes, of course you still need to lift the rope - but you can get rid of it's effect on you at key moments as you climb.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Artem Vasilyev wrote:

When you feel rope drag is a little too much - you drop the micro trax onto the rope like you would when simuling and yank out the armfuls of slack you need for the next few moves. The micro trax will catch the weight of the rope below you, lifting it off of your harness - leaving you free to move around without any weight tugging on you. Super useful if you have cruxy or delicate bits ahead of you. Exactly how much slack you choose to give yourself, is entirely up to the situation and your own risk tolerance.

Without the micro trax, you cannot do this - and are forced to fight the rope drag, which as we all know, can really suck sometimes.

For example, I did this on a long lead yesterday (I was linking several pitches and used the trax to protect me from my second, if I did end up running out of rope and they started simuling behind me) and was happy to have the ability to eliminate my drag (and the weight of the rope) as I made my way up a friction slab.

Yes, of course you still need to lift the rope - but you can get rid of it's effect on you at key moments as you climb.

Omg. To anyone reading, don't do what this guy is talking about to reduce rope drag. Just extend your gear and plan ahead.

Artem Vee · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 708
Tradiban wrote:

Omg. To anyone reading, don't do what this guy is talking about to reduce rope drag. Just extend your gear and plan ahead.

You should extend your gear - agreed - I personally always do. However, the micro trax trick is very useful if you find yourself fighting rope drag in despite of extending each placement.  

You can ignore my advice, but you'd be ignoring something that will make your life way easier when you are in a bind and will be stuck doing things the hard way for no good reason. There is no solid argument for why this isn't a good idea - aside from introducing extra slack into the system, which is a tradeoff that I will make any day in order to not have tons of extra weight pulling on me when I have to try hard at the end of a long pitch. It makes a massive difference.

To whoever is reading this: remember that a microtrax is not rated for lead falls, always place a piece above it after you place it.
k t · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2020 · Points: 0
Artem Vasilyev wrote:

There is no solid argument for why this isn't a good idea

As you mentioned, a microtrax can't catch falls, but more importantly in the event of a fall with a piece above the progress capture you would be mildly hosed. This system works great for simuling, but for use on a normal lead, especially with a crux above you, the potential ascending shenanigans to get back on belay seem like way more trouble than it's worth.

Artem Vee · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 708
k t wrote:

As you mentioned, a microtrax can't catch falls, but more importantly in the event of a fall with a piece above the progress capture you would be mildly hosed. This system works great for simuling, but for use on a normal lead, especially with a crux above you, the potential ascending shenanigans to get back on belay seem like way more trouble than it's worth.

Agreed - if you do whip, you would have the captured slack on your end, which would be annoying as you get back to your high point. I personally use this trick on sections of long moderate leads where the extra drag would be undesirable/dangerous (friction slabs, stemming corners) - but the risk of falling is near zero without the drag. I would not recommend making a habit of using this trick on a crux or delicate section that is at the limit of your capabilities. 

I normally use it to mix simuling with regular leading - it speeds up multipitches quite a bit without introducing much extra risk - and it gives me the option to get rid of the drag and weight of the rope when it is prudent to do so (which also gives me the confidence to always link pitches if I still have gear with me).
bryans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 432
Artem Vasilyev wrote:

You should extend your gear - agreed - I personally always do. However, the micro trax trick is very useful if you find yourself fighting rope drag in despite of extending each placement.  

You can ignore my advice, but you'd be ignoring something that will make your life way easier when you are in a bind and will be stuck doing things the hard way for no good reason. There is no solid argument for why this isn't a good idea - aside from introducing extra slack into the system, which is a tradeoff that I will make any day in order to not have tons of extra weight pulling on me when I have to try hard at the end of a long pitch. It makes a massive difference.

To whoever is reading this: remember that a microtrax is not rated for lead falls, always place a piece above it after you place it.

...or you could just link not so many pitches in a row that you create such bad rope drag that you cant go on without using a micro trax. Especially when simul climbing. I don't understand the recent obsession (not in this post but rampant elsewhere) with bragging about linking pitches that aren't even necessary to link or, apparently, even suitable for linking. If weather or darkness is coming on I totally get it. Or if you simply must combine two pitches to know you were good enough to lead them as one, as a personal goal or whatever.  But linking just to link while creating rope drag to the extent that one adds a micro trax to the rack in advance seems counter productive and unfun.

Artem Vee · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 708
bryans wrote:

...or you could just link not so many pitches in a row that you create such bad rope drag that you cant go on without using a micro trax. Especially when simul climbing. I don't understand the recent obsession (not in this post but rampant elsewhere) with bragging about linking pitches that aren't even necessary to link or, apparently, even suitable for linking. If weather or darkness is coming on I totally get it. Or if you simply must combine two pitches to know you were good enough to lead them as one, as a personal goal or whatever.  But linking just to link while creating rope drag to the extent that one adds a micro trax to the rack in advance seems counter productive and unfun.

It's simply faster with little risk involved - sitting around for no reason at extra belays is pretty boring. It's fun to climb large sections of rock with minimal interruption. A microtrax is a useful tool for ascending ropes, self rescue, and eliminating drag when you need to. It should be a part of most climbers multipitch racks. 

bryans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 432
Artem Vasilyev wrote:

It's simply faster with little risk involved - sitting around for no reason at extra belays is pretty boring. It's fun to climb large sections of rock continuously. 

One of the joys of my life has been the few moments spent bringing my partner up to the belay and enjoying those moments to the fullest.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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