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Add Distances between routes

Spaggett, Gotcha! · · Western NC · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 0
Luke P wrote: Wow, tough crowd.
I don't get outdoors much to climb since I live 4+ hours from any and all sport/TR climbing routes and don't get home until 6 or 7pm most Fridays. Also the lack of good pictures on some routes.
Was just looking for a way to possibly get some more climbs in during my short outdoor excursions. Apparently this is a touchy issue.....

Objectively, your laziness and entitlement is mildly offensive as it is amusing.

Anyhow, feel free to start yourself.  You searched for routes for hours at the red so you should have a great feel for the spans.  Go ahead and update the page descriptions.
Climberdude · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0
Luke P wrote: Also, the answer of "just buy the guide book". At that point, why have mountain project?

Why have mountain project?  Where else could I possibly go after work and unleash my unwarranted aggressions towards innocent strangers all the while hiding behind a false name.

Tradgic Yogurt · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2016 · Points: 55
Luke P wrote: Wow, tough crowd...

No, it's just an objectively bad idea given the reality that people continue developing, or post incomplete info, or the fact that you could learn to read the rock. It won't be very long before it's out of date, just like guidebooks, and you need to be more self-reliant (third person you, not the OP).

Luke P · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 0

The location subsection is great if you've been to a crag before.  "Left of this route" or "Right of the dihedral after the hill" is only helpful if you know the area at least a little.  It's also inconsistant, two routes referencing each other is only helpful if you know where one of them is. Trying to fix this for every area I enter would just add a lot of extra fluff to the location section that is only really helpful the first time you're there.
And it would definitely be overkill for some areas but extremely helpful in others, especially for people who have never been to that particular crag.  A small number in-between routes when listed in L-R order or R-L order would keep the location section from becoming overly verbose and help newcomers.

Counting bolt lines is how we ended up doing it, but sometimes you miss one, or spend a while looking for one when it's a hundred yards away down a path through a heavily wooded area. And I don't get much practice because I'm so far from any outdoor areas. The closest area I'm to is Devils Lake in WI which is mostly trad and bouldering. I'm not saying this would be life-changing, just helpful when you're only at a location once and want to get as much climbing in as possible without spending all day trying to count bolt lines and figure out which dihedral they meant without pictures because you don't have any cell reception.

Chris Blatchley · · Sammamish, WA · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 6

if you find the beta photos lacking, take some of your own and add them. mountain project is a community-sourced database. you can even edit the location sections to add photos or improve the descriptions.

if you want somebody else to have done the work for you, pony up and buy the fucking guidebook.

Keith Wood · · Elko, NV · Joined May 2019 · Points: 320

Find a partner that knows the area. Use partner finder. Take pictures. Add them to MP. Voila - life's better for everyone.

Or buy the guidebook. If you buy it and have a good time, you'll go back. Think of it as a long term investment.

And seriously, I was willing to give you some leeway, but you are sounding whiny and needy. I've been in the situation you are describing, and when I didn't know what anything was, I just climbed something I thought I could do. Sometimes it was great, sometimes it was an adventure. Sometimes I left a biner or a piece. Small price for a good time. It's part of what I figure on when going to a new area - an experience.

Not a scripted experience, which is what you seem to have in mind. "I will go here and I will climb this route because that is what I planned a month ago. If I cannot find it I will have to post on MP until I receive a satisfying response."

Shane Bonness · · West Lafayette, IN · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 120

If you are not aware, you can download all the pictures of an area on the app.  Then you don't need reception!

bernard wolfe · · birmingham, al · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 170

sometimes you have to work for knowledge........as opposed to having it handed to you

climbing might stand to remain more of an adventure for you if you don't seek to apply every convenience in its pursuit

Matt N · · Santa Barbara, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 394

I thought the colored tape took care of this issue?

Luke, if the tape has come off of the routes, please feel free to replace it. 

Andy Eiter · · Madison, WI · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 126

How dare you make a suggestion that would help outdoor enthusiasts connect, share information and get out into the places where they love to play on a website dedicated to helping outdoor enthusiasts connect, share information and get out into the places where they love to play.

BrokenChairs 88 · · Denver, CO · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 235

@OP:

I think you're catching flack because this is the nature of climbing outside.  Making things too accessible can lead to larger issues like over use and environmental damage.  There are probably a handful of areas where this might be helpful but IMHO it's not something I think would be a benefit and as others have noted there are inherit flaws.  When I first started climbing it felt overwhelmingly hard to figure out where routes were because I lacked the understanding of features and it was hard to identify.  I have found the best way to explore a new area is to do your homework.  If I'm going to a new area I will utilize maps and print out copies of the pictures for the routes or areas I want to climb.  Often if you can identify one route in an area you navigate your way around if you've done your prep-work.  Sometimes though it can just be downright confusing; recently I went up to Boulder Canyon for the first time and had a hell of a time trying to find what I was looking for because I honestly didn't do my homework before going and tried to just wing it with MP. After driving up and down canyon looking for the "Large Boulder" by a turnout I gave up and went and picked up the guide.  Long and short I don't think your recommend solution would be universally helpful enough to warrant a MP overhaul. Take an area like the Lower Town Wall at Index as an example.  Routes are listed L-R but as you dig down you realized that the route to the "right" is actually right and up two pitches.  This is just one example but I think you can see the point I'm making about it being not universally helpful.

My recommendations are to simply do some homework before heading out.  The time invested in research will save hours down the road when trying to navigate an area (especially a new area for you) MP is just one tool in the box. There are many other resources.  For example my buddy and I went to do a route in the Enchantments in the WA cascades and were able to cross reference MP with Steph Abegg's blog (fantastic resource BTW) I don't know much about RRG but I find it hard to imagine that MP is the only source for information on that area.  This concept stretches out well beyond just climbing. I personally think it should be harder and take some work because it will help you out more to be forced to do your research rather than just having the answer drawn up for you.  Route finding and navigation is something you need to learn even if you were told this route is 25 yards to the right probably wouldn't be that helpful.  What if it's occupied? Taking the time to research the areas gives you more options and possible backup plans and will get you more time on the rock.  The barriers of entry need to be in place because otherwise it becomes a free for all shit show. Can you imagine: person walking around looking for a route that's ~25 yards away from the start of the crag but oh no; the route the person is looking for is to the left of a route thats ~25.5 yards from the start.  Understanding route descriptions and being able to identify features on a particular route would be the solution here (what does 5.9 terrain look like compared to 5.11?) Understanding how to read rock is a skill comes with time and experience and is something everyone should understand before heading out.

Dan Daugherty · · Virginia Beach, VA · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 5
Luke P wrote: without pictures because you don't have any cell reception.

You seem to keep complaining about not having cell reception but keep refusing to buy a guidebook. Having that book solves your problem. Join the AAC and check the books out of their library if you don't want a permanent copy.

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 95

I am somewhat sympathetic but I think there's no standardized way to do this that will be helpful. As others have pointed out, there's too much variation in how routes occur on crags. They are not all neatly lined up and walkable between them. At Lumpy Ridge, for example, you can have lines on the same formation (such as Lower Twin Owls) that start on completely different ledges and have different approach trails. Sometimes lines are variations of each other that split off partway up, or start a pitch or more above the line immediately adjacent. Your best bet on MP is reading area and route descriptions and comments.

In general, MP is best for getting beta on individual lines, often much better than a guidebook. It is highly inferior to a guidebook in terms of orienting to a crag, understanding approaches and descents, and figuring out how different walls, crags, or sub-areas map out and relate to each other. 

Spaggett, Gotcha! · · Western NC · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 0
L Kap wrote: I am somewhat sympathetic but I think there's no standardized way to do this that will be helpful. As others have pointed out, there's too much variation in how routes occur on crags. They are not all neatly lined up and walkable between them. 

Yeah, if only we had a standardized way to depict routes, their features, and relative locations.  And then, maybe we could then assemble them into manuscripts with a local experts' commentary and organize them by geographic location.  Wait...

Bryce Adamson · · Connecticut · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 1,154
Matt N wrote: I thought the colored tape took care of this issue?

Luke, if the tape has come off of the routes, please feel free to replace it. 

You mean like this?

jnowis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 35

Statement from Mountain Project's "About" page:
Mountain Project aims to take climbing beta beyond the guidebook, and become the definitive climbing resource for climbers across the globe. 

Seems like this request is to move Mountain Project in the direction to become the definitive climbing resource for climbers across the globe. Seems like most of the responses are in the vain of "do it old school and buy a damn guidebook" and "how dare someone be so lazy/privileged".

Ultimately, he doesn't need to have a valid approach for the site to take to make it happen, he just needs to throw in the suggestion with the expectation that the community will then debate on the best way to achieve the goal of using Mountain Project as a resource to be able to find the climb.

Also, regarding "tape to mark the climb" sub-comments - there is a lot of history in marking climbs - Fontainebleau and Indian Creek pop to the front of my mind. Not that I am advocating for a wide-spread implementation of arrows or plaques, just pointing out that people have been trying for a long time to make it easier to get to the base of the correct climb beyond "route finding skills" and being "able to read the weakness of the rock".

Currently the climbs can be sorted spatially via left/right. Setting a distance between climb A and B seems doable. Someone adding a climb between A and B (lets call it C) wouldn't change the distance from A to B. The hurdle seems to be a user friendly way to show this data.

Jeremy S · · Southern California · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 45
Currently the climbs can be sorted spatially via left/right. Setting a distance between climb A and B seems doable. Someone adding a climb between A and B (lets call it C) wouldn't change the distance from A to B. The hurdle seems to be a user friendly way to show this data.

I do see a use case for this data, but I don't think it's worth the effort. Even if the admins agree and add this feature, users would need to go back and retroactively add this info to every route on MP. Good luck enforcing this. 

The site already gives us tools to draw a topo onto a good route photo, and describe the route with words. Why not drive this effort instead?
If any user wants to make routes more easily identified, take a good photo, and give a clear description- not just a meek "follow the obvious line."
Granted its still unlikely every FA or local expert will post clear and helpful descriptions, but it's something you can do right now without changes to the entire site. No admins necessary.
Fehim Hasecic · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 170
Spaggett, Gotcha! wrote:

Yeah, if only we had a standardized way to depict routes, their features, and relative locations.  And then, maybe we could then assemble them into manuscripts with a local experts' commentary and organize them by geographic location.  Wait...

You mean this

https://rakkup.com/

Oh wait, OP needs money for gas. Bummer
BrokenChairs 88 · · Denver, CO · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 235
jnowis wrote: Statement from Mountain Project's "About" page:
Mountain Project aims to take climbing beta beyond the guidebook, and become the definitive climbing resource for climbers across the globe. 

Seems like this request is to move Mountain Project in the direction to become the definitive climbing resource for climbers across the globe. Seems like most of the responses are in the vain of "do it old school and buy a damn guidebook" and "how dare someone be so lazy/privileged".

Ultimately, he doesn't need to have a valid approach for the site to take to make it happen, he just needs to throw in the suggestion with the expectation that the community will then debate on the best way to achieve the goal of using Mountain Project as a resource to be able to find the climb.

Also, regarding "tape to mark the climb" sub-comments - there is a lot of history in marking climbs - Fontainebleau and Indian Creek pop to the front of my mind. Not that I am advocating for a wide-spread implementation of arrows or plaques, just pointing out that people have been trying for a long time to make it easier to get to the base of the correct climb beyond "route finding skills" and being "able to read the weakness of the rock".

Currently the climbs can be sorted spatially via left/right. Setting a distance between climb A and B seems doable. Someone adding a climb between A and B (lets call it C) wouldn't change the distance from A to B. The hurdle seems to be a user friendly way to show this data.

I don't feel like this suggested feature works towards accomplishing that goal because as has been pointed out above there's are too many variances to make this feasible on a global scale and ultimately just muddies the waters.  Taking the time to add good detailed route descriptions, proper approach, beta photos does a lot more than adding distance to/from route A to B.  This type of data if applicable would be more fitting in a individual routes description. Example: Godzilla starts 15' to the right of the start of City Park (The obvious pin scared vertical tips crack) 


I don't think the aim was to say be old school use a guide book but more to say take the time to read and understand the area/routes you want to climb.  If a user comes finds this detail inadequate then they should be a steward and submit a change for review.  I have done this personally and the area admins have always been more than happy to update route descriptions. The idea was tossed out and the community is debating and the majority are saying that it's not something that would helpful on a scale to where it should be an across the board change.  Like I expressed earlier the user's ability to read a description and then apply that to what they see on the rock and being able to navigate vertical terrain will do more for both the users and community.  We should be encouraging people to take some time to plan because that ultimately makes our community more safe and conscientious.  

Users should be able to understand what they're doing and then if there are data deficiencies have the understanding enough to provide better detailed information to the database and community.  MP will never take the place of ones ability to read rock nor should it.  This feature if implemented would only bloat the data making it harder to understand.  This information should be detailed in the route/area descriptions when it's applicable but it's not a universal solution.

An example of a recent changes that was implemented as a result of requests like this one was the sun angles.  This is an example and a helpful enhancement on a global scale that works towards the mission statement of MP to be the definitive climbing resource across the globe.  I personally think the OP was right to throw the topic out there but it was lost when the community responded saying that the majority of the time this information wouldn't be helpful, explained why and then the OP doubled down rather than listening to the community.

 Lazy and privileged: we need less of this not more (I don't think this does that and that wasn't my argument, maybe some good ol fashioned trolling put that idea out there) The argument is as simple as this: This doesn't provide a universal solution to make MP better. Comparing the sun angles feature to this I think it's clear to see why it's not a good across the board enhancement.

Marking Routes: Don't do this it creates micro trash and is in general and eyesore.  Places like Indian Creek are unique because descriptions like 5.10 splitter crack, 115' apply to such a wide array of routes in that area.  Areas like IC where this practice is in place are different and there is good reasoning behind this but again this is the exception not the rule. Granite crags have distinguishing features and wouldn't benefit from marking, a sport wall maybe not so much but I think counting bolt lines is a better solution than marking a route.  Again this all feeds back into the larger point of there's just too much variation to make this a universally helpful feature.  

This suggestion is simply not a good universal enhancement. We can debate it till were blue in the face but I think just reading through this thread it's clear to see why it's not a great idea.  The fact that it can even be debated on helpful or not makes this clear.  

User should throw their ideas out the community because sometimes it does bring out good enhancements other times it's just an idea that should be discussed but ultimately that discussion leads to it not happening.
don'tchuffonme · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 25

Have you ever looked at some of the areas?  The sorting is all fucked up to begin with.  No one takes a measuring tape to the crag.  I doubt many people know what their average pace count is over rough terrain.  It's a non-starter idea.  It's just another data point to get jacked up and mislead people that seem to want to treat MP like a guidebook.  By "beyond the guidebook" I think they're more referring to comments, multiple photos of the same route, extensive approach beta or route beta- things that are actually beyond the guidebook.  And I'm sorry but if you can't find routes at arguably the most popular single pitch sport climbing area in North America, then no amount of distance information, GPS coordinates, explanation in a book or on a website will help you.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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