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Using cord or webbing to resling cams

Original Post
Erik Jackson · · North Vancouver, BC · Joined Aug 2019 · Points: 0

Ignore the tape, it was just there as a mark. This is 7mm nylon static cord tied in a loop with a double fishermans knot onto my cam. is this safe? Why or why not? Would using different size cord, 1' or 16mm tubular nylon webbing, or something else be better?


I been told and read both in books and online that this is a safe way to do things. But when I went to go buy some cord today I was told that this is questionable - 18kn webbing with a knot taking its strength down even more doesn't meet UIAA 22kn standard.

Would love to hear some opinions and suggestions. I was given this (obviously) old trad gear and want to use it to warm up to the idea of trad climbing before buying something new. First thing I did was cut the old slings because they're ancient and I don't know how they were treated. I could send the cams out to mountaintools to get reslung but for how much I'm going to use these cams, it seems like a big hassle (I don't live in the US)
SeƱor Arroz · · LA, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10

Cord was the original sling on that kind of rigid stem friend, so you're in luck. 

csproul · · Davis, CA · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Place the cord in one of the upper holes (closer to the lobes), not in the last hole...gunks tie-off.

sgt.sausage · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 0
Erik Jackson wrote:
I been told and read both in books and online that this is a safe way to do things. But when I went to go buy some cord today I was told that this is questionable - 18kn webbing with a knot taking its strength down even more doesn't meet UIAA 22kn standard.


Uhhh ... neither does most of the rack in most climbers' kits.
I'm lookin' at a BD micronut that's rated 2kN.
Several Ball Nuts in the 7-8 kN range.
Common tricam sizes (pink/red) rated for 9/10 kN
Camalots rated for 8 to 14 kN ...

In my book here is no "safe" ... only degrees of "safer" or "less safe" as the case may be.
Only you can decide what, in your opinion is "safe" and if you have to ask I'd err on the side of "less safe" in almost all circumstances.

That being said - this is the way they all used to be done by any old-timers I've been with. They've ALL got home-slung gear. Be it a cam, hexes, nuts, ... I've seen all manner of cordage and webbing used.  "Safe" ?  Safe enough for them.

But who am I? Just someone you don't know on the interwebses ...

PWZ · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 0
sgt.sausage wrote:


  Safe enough

This is MP. I'm surprised there's not a word filter for this

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 290

I’ve used both cord and one inch webbing in the past.   Both are fine. 

Jpusch · · Summerland, BC · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 180

The placement/cam will fail before that 7mm cord fails.

Take the advice you get from MEC with a grain of salt...

Erik Jackson · · North Vancouver, BC · Joined Aug 2019 · Points: 0
csproul wrote: Place the cord in one of the upper holes (closer to the lobes), not in the last hole...gunks tie-off.
The holes are pretty small, 1 or 2mm smaller than the 7mm cord I have. I have read about the gunks tie off but didn't do it because of the small diameter. Is there any sling material that is strong and small enough?
Greg Miller · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 1,485

Buy new cams; sell that for $20 to some old timer holding onto yesteryear

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 2,936
Erik Jackson wrote: The holes are pretty small, 1 or 2mm smaller than the 7mm cord I have. I have read about the gunks tie off but didn't do it because of the small diameter. Is there any sling material that is strong and small enough?

5 or 5.5 mm tech cord (not Nylon/perlon) is stronger than the 7 mm Nylon stuff.

Robert Hall · · North Conway, NH · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 20,337

I believe the "Gunks Tie Off" puts an ADDITIONAL loop of cord through the hole near the cams. (Reduces leverage on shallow horizontal cracks.)  At least that's what I learned.  

Use "Tech cord" or "Spectra Cord" (which I had been told needs a triple fisherman's...why I don't know )

Re' the 22kn "thing" : what would you rather have?  A nice piece with, say, 15-20 kn cord, or nothing in at all ? !  

I also vaguely remember a 1970's report from the days when we all had to thread nuts (no cables, except the very smallest) that seemed to show that a 6mm cord forced into a hole just a bit too small for it, was actually weaker that a 5mm cord with "play" in the same nut.  No idea who, how, or degree of science used on this "study". ... maybe Chouniard Equipment ??

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 2,936
Robert Hall wrote: 
I also vaguely remember a 1970's report from the days when we all had to thread nuts (no cables, except the very smallest) that seemed to show that a 6mm cord forced into a hole just a bit too small for it, was actually weaker that a 5mm cord with "play" in the same nut.  No idea who, how, or degree of science used on this "study". ... maybe Chouniard Equipment ??

I suspect many of today's climbers would soil their undies if they had to lead above a #4 Stopper with its 6-7 kN loop of perlon cord. But is was NBD BITD.

jay2718 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2009 · Points: 5

7mm perlon in not strong enough, you'd need 9mm perlon, which won't fit. Rigid stem cams were originally slung with 1" tubular. As noted above, use 5.5mm Tech cord, tied in a triple fisherman's knot. The triple-fish knot counteracts the Tech, dynama, and Spectra cord's knot slippage tendencies. You can sling the 5mm Tech via the Gunks tie-off hole on the neck, to facilitate horizontal placements.

Malcolm Daly · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 380

Just tie it off with 5.5mm Tech Cord or the 5.9mm V-Tec Cord using a double fisherman’s. Don’t bother with the Gunks tie-off. It clusters up your rack and is a pain to use. I climbed with tech-cord slung Friends for a decade and never had an issue. Then again, I didn’t climb in the gunks and rarely found a shallow horizontal that I couldn’t find a better placement or a different location.

Climb Safe,
Mal

Al Pine · · The 'yack, NY · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 0

VTX cord or anything similar tied with a triple fisherman will do the trick. I had a set of these reslung by runout customs recently. 

Layne Zuelke · · Baton Rouge, LA · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 30

Check out the article on North Carolina climbing in the new Rock and Ice. One of the NC old timers used a nifty trick of a gunks tie off with an outer sheath of tubular webbing for the horizontal placements found in that area of the country. It’s a nifty trick. You can see a photo of cams slung this way in his rack. 

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 290
Al Pine wrote: VTX cord or anything similar tied with a triple fisherman will do the trick. I had a set of these reslung by runout customs recently. 

Holy triple fisherman’s,  why the overkill?

csproul · · Davis, CA · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Al Pine wrote: VTX cord or anything similar tied with a triple fisherman will do the trick. I had a set of these reslung by runout customs recently. 

I don’t really see a need for both slings. If you have the Gunks tie off, why even keep the end webbing? 

IMO I think most people are better off not spending $ to get these reslung. By the time you spend on reslinging and factor in that you could probably sell these at $20 a piece, you could pretty much buy a used cam of more modern design...but that’s just my opinion.

Adrian Juncosa · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0

Biggest problem is that it's a smaller sized old Friend. But that cord is fine for the piece. I always used to use spectra and did tie them with a triple fisherman's tightened with pliers. Tied webbing is a cluster, things get tangled on the rack especially with the size of the knot. Cord is better. Sewn webbing, as shown, is the same or better. Unless you often place the piece horizontally, the Gunks tie-off has some cons, principally that the bottom end of the rigid stem gets entangled in stuff. When I used rigid Friends, I'd have the Gunks cord, much shorter than in the photo, on one of two of the same size, but also the cord at the bottom end so it would hang nicely in the rack.

Malcolm Daly · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 380
csproul wrote:

I don’t really see a need for both slings. If you have the Gunks tie off, why even keep the end webbing? 

IMO I think most people are better off not spending $ to get these reslung. By the time you spend on reslinging and factor in that you could probably sell these at $20 a piece, you could pretty much buy a used cam of more modern design...but that’s just my opinion.

BTW, we have some of original Friends in the shop for people to play with and when we weighed them; guess what? The #2 1/2 (Close to Red Camalot size) was actually about 1gm lighter than the modern Ultralight Camalots. Don't chuck your old Friends. Clean and lube them and keep them for triples at Indian Creek. They work fine.

Mal
Robert Hall · · North Conway, NH · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 20,337

Malcolm said: "...actually about 1gm lighter than the modern Ultralight Camalots. "  Yup...Alumnium is about 1/3 the density of steel, so you can have 3 times the volume in the bar-stock and still be lighter than steel cables.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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