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Giving Up Vegetables

Greg Miller · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 1,340

god i love chicken nuggets

Jonathan Brown · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0
Matt Hostetler wrote: Now tell us how climate change is a hoax for liberal scientists to make money. Just kidding. Hopefully you don’t believe that too. I think your claim that PETA is in it for profit is just as ridiculous though.

I agree with you that “it's a basic human instinct to at least be considerate of other creatures well-being.” That’s why vegans try to spread awareness. Because in animal agriculture there is no consideration of other creatures’ well being, and most consumers have no idea. I know I bought into propaganda about happy farm animals for decades. Even after I gave up meat I believed propaganda about happy cows and chickens for years.

The reality of what is happening every day, what most people pay for every day, is shocking. They violate our innate instinct to care for others. That’s why the videos about animal agriculture are shocking.

I’ve never seen anything from PETA or otherwise that makes farmers out to be “terrorists” as you say. Only you know for sure but I would guess that this is a projection due to feelings of guilt or shame, knowing that the practices in animal agriculture violate your innate human instinct to care for others, and how that threatens your view of your community and way of life which you want to be proud of. For what it’s worth I don’t see animal farmers as terrorists or innately bad people. I see them more as victims of a carnist culture that has robbed them of their empathy for animals.

1: Climate change is real.

2: PETA is in it for profit.  88.1% of their funding goes to salaries, overhead, and media.  4.1% goes to 'donations to other NGO's' and the rest goes to 'helping' animals.

3: There IS consideration of other creatures' well being - I've witnessed it first-hand.  I'm not throwing out a blanket statement saying all farmers are perfect and deserve sainthood.  There are probably many farmers that don't even consider the lives of their livestock, but it has been my inarguable observation and experience that livestock owners care about their animals.  A quick google search pulls up many PETA branded articles that vilify farmers.

4: I appreciate your observation that my opinion might be a "projection due to feelings of guilt or shame, knowing that the practices in animal agriculture violate your innate human instinct to care for others, and how that threatens your view of your community and way of life which you want to be proud of. For what it’s worth I don’t see animal farmers as terrorists or innately bad people. I see them more as victims of a carnist culture that has robbed them of their empathy for animals." - it's an intriguing way to view it, though I feel that it's a fallacy to assume my observations are negated by my past - though it's a common trope employed to call in to question the validity of someone's opinions and observations.  

Citations for my data (in MLA format):

Peta's Eye-watering Wages and Overhead Costs Exposed
Toddhanlon - realfacesofanimalrights.com…
Matt Hostetler · · Oakland, CA · Joined May 2016 · Points: 116

Thanks for talking to me genuinely Jon. I do not mean to negate your experiences and I do not doubt that animal farmers have felt like they cared about their animals.

I think it is similar to slave owners in the past saying that they care about their slaves. Maybe they honestly thought that they did. From my perspective I would say "get real". I do not accept that animal farmers truly care about their animals when they breed and sell individuals. When they forcibly impregnate female animals and take their children. When they cage animals. When they kill them for profit. When they kill children and babies for profit.

I am not sure where the website sourced its data but it is incorrect. You can see PETA's financial statements summarized here and in full here. "Management and general" expenses are listed as 1.9% of their operating expenses. Regarding salaries:

Twenty-three percent of PETA’s dedicated staff earn only $19,000 to $34,999, 45 percent earn $35,000 to $49,999, and the remaining 32 percent make more than $50,000. Our president, Ingrid Newkirk, earned $36,497 during the fiscal year ending July 31, 2018.

Not exactly raking it in. I hope that if you recognize that the article has misinformation about financials, which is most easily pointed out as incorrect, you will consider whether there is other misinformation in there as well. In particular I saw misleading information about euthanasia in PETA's shelters. I hope anyone concerned about that reads "Why We Euthanize".

I'm not affiliated with PETA and would not be surprised if one or more people in PETA are acting in ways I would disagree with. I am not very interested in discussing PETA because ultimately it is animal agriculture that is my focus, not a particular organization. But it seems like you are repeating the "PETA bad!" meme that is widespread today and I wanted to address that.
Jonathan Brown · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0
Matt Hostetler wrote: Thanks for talking to me genuinely Jon. I do not mean to negate your experiences and I do not doubt that animal farmers have felt like they cared about their animals.

I've spent my entire corporate career looking at financials.  There's absolutely no way they're only spending 1.9% on salaries.  I'd be curious to find an unbiased audit of their financials but I doubt that exists.


Cheers! & thanks for keeping it civil.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Matt Hostetler wrote: I do not accept that animal farmers truly care about their animals when they breed and sell individuals. When they forcibly impregnate female animals and take their children. When they cage animals. When they kill them for profit. When they kill children and babies for profit.
You're conflating animals with people.
How do you feel about eating fish and shellfish?
Matt Hostetler · · Oakland, CA · Joined May 2016 · Points: 116
Jonathan Brown wrote:

I've spent my entire corporate career looking at financials.  There's absolutely no way they're only spending 1.9% on salaries.  I'd be curious to find an unbiased audit of their financials but I doubt that exists.


Cheers! & thanks for keeping it civil.

The report in the "in full" link was audited and has the auditor's opinion in it. They also have a tax return here, from my understanding it seems to put total salaries around 12 million out of 53 million in operating expenses. Cheers to you as well.

Marc wrote:
You're conflating animals with people.
How do you feel about eating fish and shellfish?

I recognize differences between animals (which people are) due to physical differences. In respect to sentience and the ability to feel and suffer we have every reason to believe animals are more like us than they are not. Especially those animals that are more similar to us like mammals.

I am against eating fish. Research has shown that fish feel pain. That and evolving similarly to us is enough evidence to me that they can suffer and we should not exploit them.

Regarding shellfish you may be interested that some folks do believe oysters can be vegan. That is because we do not have good evidence that they are conscious and suffer. Peter Singer is one of the founders of the modern animal rights movement and in newer editions of his book Animal Liberation (1975) he writes:

...in the first edition of this book I suggested that somewhere between shrimp and an oyster seems as good a place to draw the line as any. Accordingly, I continued occasionally to eat oysters, scallops, and mussels for some time after I became in every other respect, a vegetarian. But while one cannot with any confidence say that these creatures do feel pain, so one can equally have little confidence in saying that they do not feel pain. Moreover, if they do feel pain, a meal of oysters or mussels would inflict pain on a considerable number of creatures. Since it is so easy to avoid eating them, I now think it better to do so.

For me, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. This article does a deep dive into bivalves and consciousness if you are interested.
Jonathan Brown · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0

Found it!  PETA financials:

https://www.peta.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/PETA-2018-Audited-Financial-Statements-FINAL.pdf

Go to the very last page for expenses:

Salaries & related expenses are $12,907,807
Professional services and consultants are $19,909,775

The CEO might have made a 39k salary, but she got a few million in other bennies.  

Matt Hostetler · · Oakland, CA · Joined May 2016 · Points: 116

Where do you see the "few million in other bennies"?

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Matt Hostetler wrote:

I am against eating fish. Research has shown that fish feel pain.

Most any living organism reacts to pain stimulus - even amoebas and, according to recent research, some maybe many plants. It doesn't mean that a few ganglia firing a contraction response is "feeling pain", at least as promulgated by vegans.

Regarding shellfish you may be interested that some folks do believe oysters can be vegan. That is because we do not have good evidence that they are conscious and suffer. 

Yet other vegans insist that eating honey is the same as eating meat.

For me, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. This article does a deep dive into bivalves and consciousness if you are interested.

We haven't been able to fully define and quantify consciousness in humans, let alone any other organisms.


Matt Hostetler · · Oakland, CA · Joined May 2016 · Points: 116

Marc you should check out Solipsism, seems up your alley   

Anthony L · · Central Washington · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 0

If you don’t grow your own food, vegan or not, you contribute to an insane amount of suffering for animals. Period. Industrial agriculture across the world is fairly fucked up.

I’m yet to meet a vegan that sustains themselves without the benefit of the modern industrial agricultural system. 

Josh C · · Somewhere out West · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 1,120
Anthony L wrote: If you don’t grow your own food, vegan or not, you contribute to an insane amount of suffering for animals. Period. Industrial agriculture across the world is fairly fucked up.

I’m yet to meet a vegan that sustains themselves without the benefit of the modern industrial agricultural system. 

Sounds like a straw man argument. "So, if you are truly an environmentalist then you would kill yourself to save the environment." These ideas aren't binary, but exist on a sliding scale. 

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

climbing friend,

you eat meat and cheese
atherosclerosis yes
your wang it limpens

Chase G · · Seattle, WA · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 161
Marc801 C wrote: Most any living organism reacts to pain stimulus - even amoebas and, according to recent research, some maybe many plants. It doesn't mean that a few ganglia firing a contraction response is "feeling pain", at least as promulgated by vegans.

Yet other vegans insist that eating honey is the same as eating meat.

We haven't been able to fully define and quantify consciousness in humans, let alone any other organisms.


Marc, don't you think there are different levels of perceived pain? Certainly you don't think that amoebas feel pain in the same way that we do. Can you really look at the screaming, crying, thrashing pain that a cow or pig goes through when it's killed and say it's simply just a pain stimulus? If you admit that animals feel pain, and you don't need to eat meat, why do you choose to be cruel?

Insert name · · Conway, New Hampster · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 60
Chase G wrote:

Marc, don't you think there are different levels of perceived pain? Certainly you don't think that amoebas feel pain in the same way that we do. Can you really look at the screaming, crying, thrashing pain that a cow or pig goes through when it's killed and say it's simply just a pain stimulus? If you admit that animals feel pain, and you don't need to eat meat, why do you choose to be cruel?

Most people just need a excuse. “But plants feel pain to”!

I don’t care if someone eats meat/dairy/whatever. But arguing facts with opinions or vague shit like this is hilarious. Normally these are the same people that say all vegans are snowflakes or that vegans can’t be world class athletes. 
Mike Brady · · Van Diesel, OR · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 753
Marc801 C wrote: You're conflating animals with people.

.......you doooo realize.....nevermind

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Mike Brady wrote:

.......you doooo realize.....nevermind

Yes, of course! Colloquial usage of "animal".

Big B · · Sin City, NV · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 1
Buck Rio wrote:

Yeah, I had to stop drinking beer, it was getting in the way of my whisky drinking.... 

But I refuse to drink Tin Cup because of their stupid commercial...

Redbreast 12 year ftw

Big B · · Sin City, NV · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 1
Matt Hostetler wrote:

While you're out there killing, think about how it would feel if someone killed a couple of your family members the same way you are killing the deer.

everythings alive ..everythings connected....even your veggies ;) 

B L · · New York, NY · Joined May 2015 · Points: 54

Not really wanting to get religious here but considering the conversation, some might find it interesting that according to Buddhism, plants have energy winds but not consciousness - so chopping up veggies isn't considered killing.

Also, my belief is that in the future we'll be able to synthesise meat and the killing of animals will be looked back on as a primitive barbaric practice (if all goes well).
My meat eating girlfriends family already took to eating my beyond meat sausages at a family BBQ because they thought they tasted better than their real meat ones (being free to eat either). Also - I heard meat can now be grown at the cellular level using animal cells and not entire live animals.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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