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Will you avoid buying gear made in China now?

Cole D · · Sydney, NSW, AU · Joined Sep 2017 · Points: 15

For sure, if you want to criticize or take issue with this country, there is LOTS to draw from.
This series on netflix is a fairly decent compilation of some of our greatest hits https://www.netflix.com/title/80127995

That said, when talking about China, the whataboutism is out of control.



I know it's hard to compare one detention camp to the next. one crime against humanity to the next.
At a BARE MINIMUM, we get to talk about these things and try to have an honest conversation about our strengths and weaknesses, where we would like to be headed, etc. That is not a reality in China.
Insert name · · Conway, New Hampster · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 60
Nivel Egres wrote:

In terms of human rights violations, China is ahead of everyone. On the other hand, the US specializes in a different type of abuse, such as bombing people. Neither practice strikes me as something I should support, to 


So do we not involve ourselves in foreign politics?
What do you define as innocent? I obviously agree there is plenty of collateral damage, but interested who you define as innocent.
Japan attacked the US and it isViewed as a bad thing by most that we retaliated. What was your solution to Japan/Germany?
Are countries and people that genocide their people, slave trades and stone women really innocent?
- For the record I’m a libertarian and don’t support foreign intervention and only support self defense of our nation. 
You Really Are The Greatest · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2019 · Points: 0

Oh, crap I just realized why people are so quick to claim that the USA is just as bad as China: they want to rationalize not doing what they know is the right thing.

Insert name · · Conway, New Hampster · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 60
  • Scott Fagen wrote:

Maybe my 4 years of building bombs for “innocent” Iraqis made me numb to how bad the USA is, but what’s going on in china seems worse to me...also I want our economy to do better than China’s. . . Call me a patriot.

I’m just wondering where he “earned” this right to hate on the US that no one else gets. Didn’t see that in any paperwork.

Oh, maybe in some other old government documents where it was granted to Everyone. It’s always funny when people think their militaryService or politicial position gives them some special privilege.
In fact, by saying  “some of us earned” the right to free speech (which is protected under the constitution for all citizens) is in clear disagreement with the Oath of enlistment. 
————I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same————

Being a Patriot was so 2010 apparently
Nivel Egres · · New York, NY · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 160
Insert name wrote: What do you define as innocent? I obviously agree there is plenty of collateral damage, but interested who you define as innocent.

I got plenty of choices there. Maybe it could be something really broad, like anywhere from 200 to 500 thousand civilians in Iraq who died in an invasion started under false pretenses. Or it could be a very narrow definition, like a 10-year old girl that was shot by a Navy SEAL just for kicks (he was put on trial but acquitted).  

Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,754
Insert name wrote:

I’m just wondering where he “earned” this right to hate on the US that no one else gets. Didn’t see that in any paperwork.

Oh, maybe in some other old government documents where it was granted to Everyone. It’s always funny when people think their militaryService or politicial position gives them some special privilege.
In fact, by saying  “some of us earned” the right to free speech (which is protected under the constitution for all citizens) is in clear disagreement with the Oath of enlistment. 
————I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same————

Being a Patriot was so 2010 apparently

This is backward thinking.  IF you think that the vast majority is "defending the constitution" (and I believe the vast majority think they are) then the first amendment is part of that Constitution, is it not?  And who, in your opinion would have more right to exercise the right granted in that amendment, than a person or people that were willing to give their lives (at least at one point) to defend it?  Yeah, if you're a combat vet, then absolutely you have the right to be pass judgment on your nation's foreign or domestic policy, because you were willing to pay quite a dear price for it.  It's not really that difficult of a concept to understand.  Clearly, you disagree.  And that's even more ironic because if you believe we're really in these foreign countries to "defend freedom" or the Constitution against enemies, then you believe I defended your right to disagree with me as well.  And that's hilarious to me.  So, you're welcome, I guess? 

Matt B · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 337
Scott Fagen wrote: Oh, crap I just realized why people are so quick to claim that the USA is just as bad as China: they want to rationalize not doing what they know is the right thing.

I (and others) weren’t making equivalencies, just pointing out that Americans don’t have as much moral high ground as we often are led to believe. We must be willing to address our own human rights issues in a meaningful way, or we provide cover to other nations who use our abuses as a scapegoat. 


I am a patriot. I love America and all the freedoms we have here. I know how amazing a country America can be, which is why I refuse to let it stay where it is. We must continue to push our nation toward our vision of better, more just society. That is true Patriotism. 

Cpn Dunsel · · Over There, But Well Hidden · Joined Jan 2003 · Points: 130


Rob D. · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30
Cole D wrote: For sure, if you want to criticize or take issue with this country, there is LOTS to draw from.
This series on netflix is a fairly decent compilation of some of our greatest hits https://www.netflix.com/title/80127995

That said, when talking about China, the whataboutism is out of control.



I know it's hard to compare one detention camp to the next. one crime against humanity to the next.
At a BARE MINIMUM, we get to talk about these things and try to have an honest conversation about our strengths and weaknesses, where we would like to be headed, etc. That is not a reality in China.


I want to be totally clear and say that while I brought up the USA in my initial post, I definitely  didn't mean for it to become whataboutism.  It wasn't the right thing to post in a conversation about China specifically, but I thought it was worth having as part of the broader discussion about how people vote with their money.  

I don't think our own missteps excuse those of other countries and believe that boycott is one of the best tools when it comes to actually trying to change something (money matters).  I think that my point was more that there are companies from countries that aren't currently running concentration camps, namely DMM and as others pointed out, fixe or other spanish companies. Vote with your money!  

Now if someone could please find me hummus not made by an Israeli company that would be awesome
Brother Numsie · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Don't equate governments with the people of any given country.
Governments draw imaginary lines across the globe and declare authority over all those who are within those lines.
Governments are the ones who stop people from crossing those imaginary lines.
It is governments that incite and fight wars.
There us nothing that is moral regarding the State.
The State is the opposite of humanity.
When you defend the State, you are doing so out of a lifetime of state-driven indoctrination.
We are being kept under the authority of whatever state claims that authority, not for our protection, but for theirs.

Cpn Dunsel · · Over There, But Well Hidden · Joined Jan 2003 · Points: 130

It's always nice to see our own institutions taking the side of the oppressor!

https://6abc.com/sports/sixers-fan-supporting-hong-kong-ejected-from-preseason-game/5604293/

This is direct fall-out because Emperor tRump cut a back-channel deal with Chinese government for a quid pro quo if they help investigate his political enemies.  He promised that the US would shut the fuck up about Hong Kong and now we seeing professional sports leagues falling in line with the lunatic-in-chief's deal.

Jared Willis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2019 · Points: 0
Nivel Egres wrote:

Why is that a surprise? A business has only one purpose - to make money. Everything else is usually a secondary consideration at best - things like human rights, ecological impact come into play as a matter of public image (at most).  

I think its surprising in this case because these are companies that began in the US but are openly choosing Chinese $$$ over what I would consider basic US values (I know we have problems but it's pretty ugly out there in most of the world comparatively). 

Dankasaurus · · Lyons, CO · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 85
Rob D. wrote: I also think that the bigger issue to many of us on whether to buy local or not is how the manufacturing of those products (and it's delivery to the consumer) impacts the environment (which is very much an issue that I think a lot of climbers care about).  It's one of the reasons that I choose to buy local as much as possible.

I wasn't trying to derail and want to be clear that obviously news coming out of China is deplorable.  I do think that some people tend to put on "local blinders" that makes them believe their own country is acting "less bad" than others which makes their own moral choices easier to rationalize.

It wasn't the right thing to post in a conversation about China specifically  


Can't get a tiny little lick in against country X without apologizing for not attacking the United States, eh?   That's sad that you're apologizing.   And your moral relativism is also sad.  

Insert name · · Conway, New Hampster · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 60
Nivel Egres wrote:

I got plenty of choices there. Maybe it could be something really broad, like anywhere from 200 to 500 thousand civilians in Iraq who died in an invasion started under false pretenses. Or it could be a very narrow definition, like a 10-year old girl that was shot by a Navy SEAL just for kicks (he was put on trial but acquitted).  

The second case you are talking about is murder. But just like every country if you know someone murder doesn’t always mean a prison sentence. (But that wasn’t a ordered killing by the US government).

While I agree Iraqi civilian (or any civilians)were innocent, they were collateral damage of war. They were never the intended target.
Unless you start claiming Ford is responsible for taking of Innocent lives by producing cars, death is a byproduct of life. 
Insert name · · Conway, New Hampster · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 60
Jake Jones wrote:

This is backward thinking.  IF you think that the vast majority is "defending the constitution" (and I believe the vast majority think they are) then the first amendment is part of that Constitution, is it not?  And who, in your opinion would have more right to exercise the right granted in that amendment, than a person or people that were willing to give their lives (at least at one point) to defend it?  Yeah, if you're a combat vet, then absolutely you have the right to be pass judgment on your nation's foreign or domestic policy, because you were willing to pay quite a dear price for it.  It's not really that difficult of a concept to understand.  Clearly, you disagree.  And that's even more ironic because if you believe we're really in these foreign countries to "defend freedom" or the Constitution against enemies, then you believe I defended your right to disagree with me as well.  And that's hilarious to me.  So, you're welcome, I guess? 

I am not justifying war. I’m stating the Oath of Enlistment which states your upholding and protecting of the constitution.

You are entitled to free speech, just like everyone else in this country. But you were the one saying you somehow deserve more of an opinion because of  military service. Serving in the military doesn’t give you an extra “privilege” to rights over others and that is where I don’t agree. That is no better than a politician or cop that abuses their power because they feel they deserve more than civilians.
i’m 100% for criticizing the government and think that’s the best part about the US. But pretending we are as bad as China or that one group deserves that Privilege over another is pretty silly.

unless someone joined up to kill innocent people, they obviously think the country deserves fighting for, or had self serving interests. I also don’t buy into the idea of POG’s pretending they “laid their life down” by pushing papers or cooking outside of a war zone and find it offensive to those that actually are in harms way (not saying that is you, but I see it a lot).
Blakevan · · Dallas, TX · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 55
Nivel Egres wrote:

Why is that a surprise? A business has only one purpose - to make money. Everything else is usually a secondary consideration at best - things like human rights, ecological impact come into play as a matter of public image (at most).  

That's a post WWII phenomenon.  Prior to current times a lot of companies cared about the communities they were servicing and drawing their workforce from (Ford and Hersey's). There are undercurrents in today's world of CEOs/Boards starting to change their attitude about other stakeholders besides shareholders but I wouldn't get too excited because profits are still key to staying in business.  

Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,754
Insert name wrote:

I am not justifying war. I’m stating the Oath of Enlistment which states your upholding and protecting of the constitution.

You are entitled to free speech, just like everyone else in this country. But you were the one saying you somehow deserve more of an opinion because of  military service. Serving in the military doesn’t give you an extra “privilege” to rights over others and that is where I don’t agree. That is no better than a politician or cop that abuses their power because they feel they deserve more than civilians.
i’m 100% for criticizing the government and think that’s the best part about the US. But pretending we are as bad as China or that one group deserves that Privilege over another is pretty silly.

unless someone joined up to kill innocent people, they obviously think the country deserves fighting for, or had self serving interests. I also don’t buy into the idea of POG’s pretending they “laid their life down” by pushing papers or cooking outside of a war zone and find it offensive to those that actually are in harms way (not saying that is you, but I see it a lot).

And you are, who exactly?  The Oath of Enlistment ends when your enlistment does.  Yes, I absolutely think that someone that got duped by their government into whatever amalgam of patriotism/statism that exists now enough to sign up to die to defend corporate profits overseas has more right to bitch about the policies that same government pushes.  Let me say that again, so you can disagree with it again.  If you were willing to give your life for what you believed was defending the constitution and American freedom (or some idea of those concepts) then yes, you 100% have more right to bitch about the government and its policies than someone that was not.  I don't care if you disagree.  No, that is not the same as a cop or politician that is corrupt.  There is no abuse of power in my opinion; there is no corruption on my part that is hurting anyone else, so your comparison is fallacious.  I just feel that my grievance against the way shit is run (especially shit overseas) is more poignant and valid because... oh, I dunno... I actually had to witness some of it and be a part of it.  Kind of like if you live in a shitty neighborhood and have to deal with the crime and litter and decay, you have a bit more of a right to bitch about that neighborhood that someone that lives  three suburbs over and doesn't really have to deal with it in the same way.  Again, I don't really feel like this is that difficult of a concept to grasp, but you seem to be having such a hard time with it.  

Also, I didn't say we were as bad as China or that one group deserves privilege over any other.  So, that again is a fallacious argument.  You're positing things that I never stated as if I did, and then arguing against them.  That's what people that don't really have a point do.
Cpn Dunsel · · Over There, But Well Hidden · Joined Jan 2003 · Points: 130
Jake Jones wrote:

And you are, who exactly?  The Oath of Enlistment ends when your enlistment does.  Yes, I absolutely think that someone that got duped by their government into whatever amalgam of patriotism/statism that exists now enough to sign up to die to defend corporate profits overseas has more right to bitch about the policies that same government pushes.  Let me say that again, so you can disagree with it again.  If you were willing to give your life for what you believed was defending the constitution and American freedom (or some idea of those concepts) then yes, you 100% have more right to bitch about the government and its policies than someone that was not.  I don't care if you disagree.  No, that is not the same as a cop or politician that is corrupt.  There is no abuse of power in my opinion; there is no corruption on my part that is hurting anyone else, so your comparison is fallacious.  I just feel that my grievance against the way shit is run (especially shit overseas) is more poignant and valid because... oh, I dunno... I actually had to witness some of it and be a part of it.  Kind of like if you live in a shitty neighborhood and have to deal with the crime and litter and decay, you have a bit more of a right to bitch about that neighborhood that someone that lives  three suburbs over and doesn't really have to deal with it in the same way.  Again, I don't really feel like this is that difficult of a concept to grasp, but you seem to be having such a hard time with it.  

Also, I didn't say we were as bad as China or that one group deserves privilege over any other.  So, that again is a fallacious argument.  You're positing things that I never stated as if I did, and then arguing against them.  That's what people that don't really have a point do.



No one wants or needs respect or listen to Scaramucci now because he had chance while still under service to act differently.  His privilege to complain more was abrogated by himself when he chose to willingly serve tRump.

Your rights are not greater.  For any reason.  Ever.  No one's rights 'to bitch' are greater.  Under any circumstances.

You were already compensated for your service.

Gokul · · Madison, WIsconsin · Joined May 2011 · Points: 1,577

Some questions to consider ...
Should American companies suffer the consequences of the decisions of their elected leaders and the history of their land and people? What about Chinese companies? And is there a difference because the economy in China is largely controlled by the government while the economy in the US is largely driven by market forces?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 275
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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