Winter is coming. Are you avy aware?

I'm conducting a very informal unscientific poll/starting a convo about avy safety and ice climbing.

Do you climb in avalanche terrain?
If so, do you carry a beacon, probe and shovel?
Have you taken an avalanche safety course?
If so, did you feel the course was geared in any way to you as an ice climber?

Thanks for your help!
I think I may have spotted some ice forming high in Glacier Gorge in RMNP today, Winter is coming!

Hi Dara, this is a great poll!

I only started climbing Ice last year and stuck to very low avy risk terrain. I also did some winter walking and scrambling, but again mostly stuck to ridges. I did learn to read the avy forecast and went to a couple of free clinics, but did not take a formal class or purchase any safety gear.

For this year, I'll be approaching things a little differently. I have already acquired beacon/shovel/probe and plan to take AIARE I with the CMC in late November or early December. I'll hopefully be able to follow up after that as to whether or not the course had any focus on climbers vs skiers/boarders.

To directly answer the poll:
I plan on it
I will when traveling in that terrain in a party of more than 1
I will
Not sure yet!

These cool temps down here in Denver this week have gotten me pretty psyched! Is it too early to bust out the file and start touching up the picks and points?

Good topic!

Yes, I climb in Avy terrain.

When I'm in Avy terrain, I do carry a Beacon, Probe and Shovel. And so do my partners, I wouldn't climb with them otherwise. Compared to everything else we carry, avy gear small and light, there are no excuses. The guides I've used mandate Avy gear when travelling in Avy terrain. Don't skimp on probe length, get the longest available. People have survived being buried in more than 4 meters under avy debris! And by all means, get a modern beacon! Beacon technology has improved greatly!

I've taken AST-1 in Canmore, Alberta (thru Alpine Club of Canada). I highly recommend taking the course from people who live and work in Avy terrain! The course was generally for anyone travelling thru Avy terrain, primarily backcountry skiers, ski touring, and some mountaineering. But we did not cover specific climbing scenarios.

If you know of specific resources for climbing in avy terrain, please post them!

Thanks

Good topic, and good questions.

Some key gaps in the survey: Do you make sure you are aware of terrain on and above the approach, route, and descent? And that you are aware of avy conditions and forecast before deciding on your objective, your plan, and whether to climb at all? Are you appropriately respectful/fearful of the risk from avalanches? Etc.
-My answers to these: yes, I believe so, but time will tell. 

Do you climb in avalanche terrain?
-yes

If so, do you carry a beacon, probe and shovel?
-I have carried avy gear on exposed approaches. But not always. I have not yet carried avy gear up a route itself. On one notable occasion I felt it would have been prudent once on a dangerous walk off, otherwise I feel I've been conservative based on the above questions.

Have you taken an avalanche safety course?
-Yes levels 1 and 2 and have been backcountry skiing for as long as ice climbing (2 decades plus). Feel my mindset is quite conservative, and that I have a good sense that there is a lot that I don't know. Although I have certainly succumbed to powder and ice fever.

If so, did you feel the course was geared in any way to you as an ice climber?
-They were ski-oriented. Applicable to climbing, but only incidentally. Climbing was never mentioned, I don't believe.

 

Do you climb in avalanche terrain? YES
If so, do you carry a beacon, probe and shovel? YES
Have you taken an avalanche safety course? YES, AVI 1 + professional rescue courses
If so, did you feel the course was geared in any way to you as an ice climber?  the AVI course curriculums focus of BC travelers (ski, board, snowshoes, mountaineering). IMO ice climbing doesnt need to be specifically mentioned because its inherently covered in the material (i.e. human factors, decision making, approach etc..)

mike again wrote: 

Some key gaps in the survey: Do you make sure you are aware of terrain on and above the approach, route, and descent? And that you are aware of avy conditions and forecast before deciding on your objective, your plan, and whether to climb at all? Are you appropriately respectful/fearful of the risk from avalanches? Etc.

Excellent points, Mike. And these questions really go to the heart of the matter. If I were to do a comprehensive survey, it would also ask in what ranges the respondent climbs, because I'm trying to lay the groundwork for some possible outreach, and would like to concentrate my efforts where they really matter.

As to your point of being aware of terrain "on and above the approach, route, and descent," I would have to add that it's important to consider the danger rating for all elevations, even if you're climbing below treeline, if your route or approach lies underneath higher avy terrain. The line you plan to climb might be in a green zone, but that doesn't mean its safe if there are snow bowls above that are in a yellow or orange zone. I think this may be something that people new to thinking about avalanche risk might miss.

 

curt86iroc wrote

IMO ice climbing doesnt need to be specifically mentioned because its inherently covered in the material (i.e. human factors, decision making, approach etc..)

I can think of at least one major thing that distinguishes us ice climbers from BC skiers--we sometimes separate ourselves from our packs--especially if we've hauled a heavy pack to the base of a multipitch line and swapped it for a small bullet pack for snacks and liquids. If you leave your avy gear behind, you have to make sure you secure it in a safe place not in any potential avy path. That probably goes without saying, but there are so many things to consider in assessing and mitigating risk, probably nothing should go without saying.

Do you climb in avalanche terrain?
Yes, but often stable and well predicted terrain in the North East, but it is still avy terrain with serious consequences

If so, do you carry a beacon, probe and shovel?
Not when climbing, often when skiing. This will likely change this year, but in the past no we have not. Though have also limited our climbing in avy terrain to days with low or no real avalanche danger.

Have you taken an avalanche safety course?
YES AIARE 1

If so, did you feel the course was geared in any way to you as an ice climber?
Not really, it was geared towards skiiers despite being taught by an ice guide. The same rules apply though.

Dara wrote:

I can think of at least one major thing that distinguishes us ice climbers from BC skiers--we sometimes separate ourselves from our packs--especially if we've hauled a heavy pack to the base of a multipitch line and swapped it for a small bullet pack for snacks and liquids. If you leave your avy gear behind, you have to make sure you secure it in a safe place not in any potential avy path. That probably goes without saying, but there are so many things to consider in assessing and mitigating risk, probably nothing should go without saying.

The other thing I can think of is that we don't skin / hike up the terrain we are going up before going up it. While skiiers might go down a different way they have a better sense for how the snow feels and is reacting under foot (womping, cracking, etc). Ice climbs normally go up places where avalanches drain and the snow conditions above may not be visible, so even if chances are low something will happen it can be hard to evaluate and call off. Then you are at the top and in a committed situation usually, where a skiier may be able to evaluate that things are sketchy and the group can turn around or follow a plan B easier.

Dara wrote:

I can think of at least one major thing that distinguishes us ice climbers from BC skiers--we sometimes separate ourselves from our packs--especially if we've hauled a heavy pack to the base of a multipitch line and swapped it for a small bullet pack for snacks and liquids. If you leave your avy gear behind, you have to make sure you secure it in a safe place not in any potential avy path. That probably goes without saying, but there are so many things to consider in assessing and mitigating risk, probably nothing should go without saying.

hmmm real good point that i didnt consider. though to be honest, you can apply this potential risk to any kind of BC travel (i.e. evaluate where you are in relation to your rescue gear), but i agree it's more common for ice climbers. 

it really all comes back to risk management and decision making..

Do you climb in avalanche terrain?
If so, do you carry a beacon, probe and shovel?
Have you taken an avalanche safety course?
If so, did you feel the course was geared in any way to you as an ice climber?

Yes.
Rarely.
Yes.
No.

Much of my climbing is spent in avalanche terrain, but I feel the usefulness of a beacon/shovel/probe is much less than when skiing. Really the only theoretical spot that is going to do me any good is on the approach, so if I feel it's useful there, I'll bring it. Generally, once you are on the climb, you ain't surviving an avalanche that rips you off the mountain, so what's the use in the extra weight?

sDawg wrote: I'm a skier and not an ice climber, but I'd argue anyone answering no to question 3 is unqualified to answer question 1.

I'm sorry if part of your survey was finding and observing those people and I ruined it.

Are you though? <wink>

Do you climb in avalanche terrain?
Yes.

If so, do you carry a beacon, probe and shovel?
Sometimes. If I will be facing serious hazard in a location where they would be useful (such as a potentially unstable snowfield that is NOT HANGING, ie. probably not between pitches on the climb) I take them. If I will be facing a serious hazard in a location where they would not be useful (unstable hanging snowfield, unstable overhead snowfield or serac when I am on the climb) or I encounter such a hazard, I bail.

Have you taken an avalanche safety course?
Yes, AST 1 & 2.

If so, did you feel the course was geared in any way to you as an ice climber?
Not really, but it didn't really need to be.

I have climbed a lot in avalanche terrain and never brought gear. It just wasn't standard practice when I learned, I am rethinking this now (as many of us are). It depends on the route, but I am inclined to include it in the kit nowadays.

Do you climb in avalanche terrain?
Yes - infrequently. 
If so, do you carry a beacon, probe and shovel?
On occasion. Sadly probably not as much as I should.
Have you taken an avalanche safety course?
Yes, AIARE Level 1
If so, did you feel the course was geared in any way to you as an ice climber?
Not really. I'm not sure that it would have helped a lot if it were. In my own experience a climb either has an avalanche hazard or it does not. If it does there's usually very little to do to mitigate it other than avoiding that climb until things change. Skiers (the target audience of the course) can choose to ski less steep and safer terrain often fairly close to dangerous steep terrain, so I feel pit analysis and thus the course in general is far more useful to them.

i splitboard and carry avy gear and i have taken an avalanche course 

sDawg wrote: I'm a skier and not an ice climber, but I'd argue anyone answering no to question 3 is unqualified to answer question 1.

I'm sorry if part of your survey was finding and observing those people and I ruined it.

I have an excellent guide book that points out avalanche terrain relative to ice climbs and their approaches.  Thus I am aware that approaching and climbing those climbs puts me in avalanche terrain, without having taken an avy course.

Not saying the guide book is necessarily comprehensive or that it negates the need / wisdom of taking training...just saying ;0)

Having only ice climbed one season I was heavily reliant on trusting my mentors / climbing partners who are adverse to playing in avalanche terrain to make the calls.

1)  As far as I know I have avoided ice climbing in avy terrain.
2)  No.
3)  No.  I will be taking training.  Then I will asses my personal risk tolerance and ice climbing ambitions to make a decision on question #2.  Until then I am going to continue to rely on my friends, one of whom is a professional ice climber (not that I will be climbing with him, but we talk), mentors, partners, and the many years of combined experience that went into the new in 2019 guide book to continue to avoid the high risk areas.
4)  N/A

 

1 - Yes
2 - On a case-by-case basis ONLY.
In my mind, deciding to climb in avalanche terrain is a go/no-go decision that should be made the night before, and constantly re-evaluated throughout the day.  I will take it when doing lengthy mid-winter approaches (often on skis anyway).  It's not like skiing where you can get away with riding it out.  If you screw up in a gully or below a big bowl, you probably gonna die.
It's getting pushed a LOT now locally because a beacon makes it easier, faster, and safer for the searchers to do a body recovery.  Avy gear is not doing anything while you're on the climb.  The best way to mitigate on the climb is to be attached to the rope with pro between you, belay in sheltered areas, and have bomber pro and anchors in.
3 - Yes, multiple courses up to AST2.  I also backcountry ski a lot.
4 - No, but there are some local courses focusing more on the climbing side.

sDawg wrote: I'm a skier and not an ice climber, but I'd argue anyone answering no to question 3 is unqualified to answer question 1.

I'm sorry if part of your survey was finding and observing those people and I ruined it.

I will challenge that assumption.  The best Backcountry skier I know has never taken an avy course. But spends a tremendous amount of time in the mountains. There is no substitute for time spent in the mountains. 

Just because you answered yes to question 3 does not make you qualified to answer question 1

trailridge I agree there is no substitution for experience however the know before you go program's purpose is to educate people using others mistakes and experiences so you don't put your life on the line in avalanche terrain and taking an avalanche class is the fastest and safest way to be safe in avalanche terrain. i feel almost everyone in avalanche terrain without some amount of training is being reckless.

got to love the n000bs who have taken a course and then act all high and mighty.   Yes I climb in avy terrain. no I have not taken the course. yes I am still alive after 38yrs ice climbing. no I do Not carry a shovel , probe or beacon.    most of the time  I am pretty conservative about snow conditions.   probably more conservative than if I had taken the course and had all the toys.  Most of the time when someone gets flushed in my area that I know intimately  I know that I would not have been there doing that on that day.  I keep a very  close eye on temp, sunshine  and precipitation in all the areas that I typically climb for the whole season and can very accurately predict ice and snow conditions on any given day in those areas without resorting to asking on the internet.  Not that I am above cheating and taking advantage of photos I see on FB. Its just rarely a surprise  to me when someone posts that a climb is in our out.