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Knot pass: Munter Overhand Feed-Through. Has anyone tried this?


Original Post
Fran M · · Germany · Joined Feb 2019 · Points: 0

I am looking for a fast way to pass a knot while lowering a climber, that avoids using several releasable hitches and load transfers.
I ran across this:

(The end of the rope should be tied into the master point and not one one of the anchor points)

Has anyone tried this? has a reliable source for this method? Thanks
Dillon Schwertz · · New Paltz · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
Fran M wrote: I am looking for a fast way to pass a knot while lowering a climber, that avoids using several releasable hitches and load transfers.
I ran across this:

(The end of the rope should be tied into the master point and not one one of the anchor points)

Has anyone tried this? has a reliable source for this method? Thanks

This works just fine. Haven't had to do it for real but I've practiced it when we were practicing knot passes. Another tool in the toolbox for sure but if I have a cord I'd probably opt to do the load transfer way. Maybe it isn't the FASTEST but if you practice it, it shouldn't take more than a few min to pass a knot. Hopefully I'll never be in a situation where the difference of 3min is gonna matter much.

mbk · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0

A middle-ground would be to temporarily transfer the load to a klemheist-MMO, then pass the knot, then release the KMMO.   No pop, no jamming shenanigans, only takes one knot (if you count a KMMO as one knot ;-).

Dillon Schwertz · · New Paltz · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
mbk wrote: A middle-ground would be to temporarily transfer the load to a klemheist-MMO, then pass the knot, then release the KMMO.   No pop, no jamming shenanigans, only takes one knot (if you count a KMMO as one knot ;-).

^^ yup, this is the load transfer way i was thinking of.

curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 74

seems very hitch and knot specific... im a fan of the releasable hitch method myself...

Fran M · · Germany · Joined Feb 2019 · Points: 0
mbk wrote:

A middle-ground would be to temporarily transfer the load to a klemheist-MMO, then pass the knot, then release the KMMO.   No pop, no jamming shenanigans, only takes one knot (if you count a KMMO as one knot ;-).

If you mean to feed the bend through the munter hitch manually while the "KMMO" is holding the load, that is also the least cumbersome way I found while playing around. instead of the KMMO, I used a tibloc and the rope for its MMO.

But a a second prusik and catastrophe knot needs to be placed behind the bend and the previous prusik removed.

The video does not show replacing the prusiks but would also be needed in that case.
Dillon Schwertz · · New Paltz · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
Fran M wrote:

If you mean to feed the bend through the munter hitch manually while the "KMMO" is holding the load, that is also the least cumbersome way I found while playing around. instead of the KMMO, I used a tibloc and the rope for its MMO.

But a a second prusik and catastrophe knot needs to be placed behind the bend and the previous prusik removed.

The video does not show replacing the prusiks but would also be needed in that case.

why the c knot?

also, could you just feed slack through the prusik and tie another munter behind the bend instead of using a second prusik and feeding the bend through?

mbk · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0
Fran M wrote:

If you guys mean to feed the bend through the munter hitch manually while the "KMMO" is holding the load, that is also the least cumbersome way I found while playing around. I used the rope for the KMMO. But a a second prusik and catastrophe knot needs to be placed behind the bend and the previous prusik removed.

The video does not show replacing the prusiks but would also be needed in that case.

If you use a double-length dyneema sling, the KMMO is ridiculously fast.

Dillon Schwertz · · New Paltz · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
mbk wrote:

If you use a double-length dyneema sling, the KMMO is ridiculously fast.

tying a friction hitch with dyneema? is that a thing?

curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 74
Dillon Schwertz wrote:

tying a friction hitch with dyneema? is that a thing?

yup, and it works well...as long as you don't use a classic prussik. 

Dillon Schwertz · · New Paltz · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
curt86iroc wrote:

yup, and it works well...as long as you don't use a classic prussik. 

what prusik do you use then?

Fran M · · Germany · Joined Feb 2019 · Points: 0
Dillon Schwertz wrote:

why the c knot?

In case the KMMO fails and the third hand does not bite.

also, could you just feed slack through the prusik and tie another munter behind the bend instead of using a second prusik and feeding the bend through?

you mean an MMO at the belay loop behind the bend? and after feeding the bend, what? install a prusik and undo it? or undo the Munter at the master point and lower from it? too cumbersome

curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 74
Dillon Schwertz wrote:

what prusik do you use then?

you don't use a prussik. personally, i find a klemheist to work the best with a dyneema sling.

Fran M · · Germany · Joined Feb 2019 · Points: 0
mbk wrote:

If you use a double-length dyneema sling, the KMMO is ridiculously fast.

Yes, but it was often too short on my attemps. And holding the dyneema break strand is not very comfortable.

Dillon Schwertz · · New Paltz · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
curt86iroc wrote:

you don't use a prussik. personally, i find a klemheist to work the best with a dyneema sling.

ohhhh ok, i thought you were gonna teach me a prusik2.0 or something. thanks!

Dillon Schwertz · · New Paltz · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
Fran M wrote: In case the KMMO fails and the third hand does not bite.

you mean an MMO at the belay loop behind the bend? and after feeding the bend, what? install a prusik and undo it? or undo the Munter at the master point and lower from it? too cumbersome

Ah, usually i'm ok with 2 backups (kmmo and autoblock)

nope! probably too much to figure out in a message. sounds like everyone on the thread is doing slight variations of the same thing. cool original question!

Fran M · · Germany · Joined Feb 2019 · Points: 0
Dillon Schwertz wrote:

Ah, usually i'm ok with 2 backups (kmmo and autoblock)

nope! probably too much to figure out in a message. sounds like everyone on the thread is doing slight variations of the same thing. cool original question!

Yeah, agree. Keep in mind though, the KMMO is not a backup. So you only have the autoblock, which could or could not bite. So Id argue a c knot is mandatory.

jktinst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55

Interesting that this video should come out 3 years after my initial thread describing the EDK Munter pass-through.

As I explained in the 3rd paragraph of the OP, I investigated the option of using the two tails to force the knot off of the munter's loop but really didn't like it for the reason clearly demonstrated in this video: it only works if you let the loop get fairly long and, as a result, you get a long-ish drop when the knot pops off the loop.

The pass-through method I described takes a tiny bit longer but does not cause a drop and is still much faster than knot-passing techniques that involve installing a load-releasable friction hitch solely to pass the knot.

BGardner · · Seattle, WA · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 0

The method shown in the video is great.  Karsten is a great resource to follow.
I've practiced this method a bunch and used it over a dozen times in real life.  Never had a problem.  

I see zero reason to further complicate things with the "pass-through" method being described by jktinst.
When you tie two ropes together your climber will be 200' away when you pop the overhand through the Munter.  That much rope is so stretchy that they'll barely even notice the 6inch drop.  

I disagree with the OP about tying the end of the rope to the masterpoint.  It will just be in the way with no gain.  The end of the rope isn't being loaded in any way and is just being secured to prevent dropping it.  I find that I'm usually still tied into the end of the rope so I usually don't need to worry but if I'm off the rope I'd tie the end to one of the anchor pieces just like Karsten did.

The key to this method is the Flat-Overhand and the Munter.  Easy enough if you can anticipate the need.  You'll still need to know a load-releasable way if you get caught off guard belaying with an ATC or by a random loop in the rope that you didn't flake out.

Mark A · · Golden, CO · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 91

Perhaps its the correct pronunciation but am I the only one to whom "mewnter" hitch just sounds like nails on a chalk board?  (bringing important info to the discussion...you're welcome)

jktinst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55
BGardner wrote: ...
I see zero reason to further complicate things with the "pass-through" method being described by jktinst.
When you tie two ropes together your climber will be 200' away when you pop the overhand through the Munter.  That much rope is so stretchy that they'll barely even notice the 6inch drop.  
Look closely at the video. The distance travelled by the knot during the popping is closer to double that, and if the person being lowered is conscious, he will definitely notice it.

No matter how much rope is out already, it will be stretched to its full stretch for the static load being held. Instantly releasing several inches of slack will instantly drop the person by that much plus some more because the sudden free-fall acceleration will cause additional stretching of the rope. That is why they recommend letting the person know the drop is coming. Now, if everything is good, a drop like this is no big deal and does not put the person or the rope in danger but in less ideal situations, it could be a problem. In any case, the video should include a warning never to do this with static cordage.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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