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To post or not to...

Original Post
The Raven · · SoCo · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0

Recently finished a 3 pitch sprad route. It is high in the mountains close to another route put up a few years ago by someone else. That route has yet to be posted as well. Here is why.

Both routes have sections that could be aided with Rurps. Living in this area is a notorious aid climber, bolt mangler, sociopath who is a member on this site.

As the fa of the other route we bolted those sections so more could enjoy them, as opposed to the few. Therein lies the conundrum. If we don't post these routes chances are they will fall away to word of mouth in a tiny community and be forgotten, eliminating the opportunity for others. If posted they could very well just get chopped.

Would you post?

master gumby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 262

whose the crazy bolt chopper?!?!?!?!

Brian Sundermann · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2017 · Points: 0

1.  Post it.  Tag the guy.
2.  Gather a tent, food, stove, gun, and as many beverages as your heart desires.
3.  Wait.

Jason Halladay · · Los Alamos, NM · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 13,415

That's sad and unfortunate. I'd lean towards leaving it at as word of mouth, give it some time and see where things go in regards to the sociopath and the popularity of the route. (I want to climb it!) 

David Baltz · · Albuquerque, New Mexico · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 471
The Raven wrote: Recently finished a 3 pitch sprad route. It is high in the mountains close to another route put up a few years ago by someone else. That route has yet to be posted as well. Here is why.

Both routes have sections that could be aided with Rurps. Living in this area is a notorious aid climber, bolt mangler, sociopath who is a member on this site.

As the fa of the other route we bolted those sections so more could enjoy them, as opposed to the few. Therein lies the conundrum. If we don't post these routes chances are they will fall away to word of mouth in a tiny community and be forgotten, eliminating the opportunity for others. If posted they could very well just get chopped.

Would you post?

You seem to already have decided there are not enough bolted routes out there for people to enjoy, so I would go ahead and post it.  The bolts are already there.

The Raven · · SoCo · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0

Very little of the route is bolted. Out of 290 feet only 90 are bolted. 6 bolts over easy terrain for someone who climbs the grade. Not just a bolted route.

Are there not enough aid routes?

Mike Grainger · · Waterloo, ON Canada · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

Can you live with having the bolts chopped?  Are you or others ready to replace the bolts if they are chopped?  If so, post away.  Some people will appreciate and take advantage of your efforts.

If you are waiting for the trad fundamentalists to give your reasoning a fair hearing, and be swayed by it, I refer you to the phrase "When hell freezes over".

In my experience, true belief and reason are usually mutually exclusive.

FWIW, I put up ground up, no previous inspection, natural pro only multi pitch adventure routes.  I also climb sport routes and boulder routinely.  I am a godless agnostic destined to burn in the fires of hell..

David Baltz · · Albuquerque, New Mexico · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 471
The Raven wrote: Very little of the route is bolted. Out of 290 feet only 90 are bolted. 6 bolts over easy terrain for someone who climbs the grade. Not just a bolted route.

Are there not enough aid routes?

Fair enough.  I would think that power drills and the proliferation of bolting (it's growing exponentially) would be an environmental concern to others as well--not just "traddies."  I can remember the days when pin scars were the big concern.  Then came "clean climbing."  Now we're back to scarring the rock on a world-wide basis.  Does anyone doubt that 'clean' bolt substitutes will not come along in the near future?  Why not leave a few routes for future 'leave no trace' climbers.

Jeremy S · · Southern California · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 45
Mike Grainger wrote:  I am a godless agnostic destined to burn in the fires of hell...
Godless agnostics believe in hell??
Mike Grainger · · Waterloo, ON Canada · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

Possibly I was not referencing my personal belief system?

JJK · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 15

Post it, but name it the Jim Beyer Memorial Route.

The Raven · · SoCo · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0
JJK wrote: Post it, but name it the Jim Beyer Memorial Route.

Funny, but he would probably be offended and certainly mangle it. The route is named Climb it Change. 


David, we thought about leaving it but I kinda think the leave for the future ideology to be wobbly at best. That line of thought could be said about any new climb, even a simple, easy trad route. Chances are some trace of your passing will be present while establishing it.
Cleaning etc... And who are we to take that possible FA from someone not yet born? 

If a boltless future comes to fruition I imagine we will see climbers pulling bolts in an intelligent fashion instead of placing them. Climbers have always used the best technology available at the time and evolved with advancements. The bolts on this route were all placed by hand on lead from natural stances and a couple of Rurps.

Jim would not remove these bolts in an intelligent fashion. He would mangle them to prove his point. Even his routes recently established in the area are littered with half ass installations. Look up the thread
Really Jim? for an idea.
master gumby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 262

Public shaming and name dropping is what I was waiting for. Both are powerful tools. I say post the damn route. We'll all know who chopped it if something happens....

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 622
David Baltz wrote:

Fair enough.  I would think that power drills and the proliferation of bolting (it's growing exponentially) would be an environmental concern to others as well--not just "traddies."  I can remember the days when pin scars were the big concern.  Then came "clean climbing."  

Even though it was "sold" as "clean climbing", nuts were quickly adopted because it was faster and easier to place and remove pro making harder routes more possible, rather than because of a huge concern about pin scars.   And I don't think I need to mention the weight of a rack of iron pins and a hammer.  Oh, I just did.   And if RURPs are the alternative, how are they any different than other pins?

Now we're back to scarring the rock on a world-wide basis.  

I've seen poisoned food/water/air, war, plague, environmental collapse, asteroid impacts and volcanic winter listed as causes for the end of civilization.   I guess scaring the rock on a world-wide basis just hasn't hit Instagram or Facebook yet.  Please share.

If you want to blame someone, blame climbing gyms.  Or overpopulation.   The Outdoor-Industrial Complex.  Or Hemingway.  Or Trump.  Or Fake News.  (But not both.)

Does anyone doubt that 'clean' bolt substitutes will not come along in the near future?  Why not leave a few routes for future 'leave no trace' climbers.

I heard that one in the near past, about 35 years ago, so yeah, I seriously doubt it.    

And oh, there's no such thing as a leave no trace climber, hiker, camper, human being.   Get over it.   Their clothing, shoes, food & water consumption, houses, electrical consumption, cell towers, automobiles, highways; everything leaves a trace and much larger scars.
Godzilla is okay but his fans are real idiots NAWMEAN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2019 · Points: 0

Haha, y'too late son.  I done chopped that rig, nawmean?!?!

Probably best to just make a semi-vague thread about on the forum so you can indirectly spray about putting up some mixed 1-star route that would go on gear.

David Baltz · · Albuquerque, New Mexico · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 471
The Raven wrote:


The bolts on this route were all placed by hand on lead from natural stances and a couple of Rurps.

More power to you!  I respect that style.  Sorry to hijack the thread for my rant.

The Raven · · SoCo · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0
Idyllwild Incel wrote: Haha, y'too late son.  I done chopped that rig, nawmean?!?!

Probably best to just make a semi-vague thread about on the forum so you can indirectly spray about putting up some mixed 1-star route that would go on gear.

Yet another post that has no relevance. More crap Rollin out of one of many Burchey personas. You should stick to making knives. Or better put, adding handles to metal you did not forge. 

You know nothing about this route. And I doubt you could climb it. A bit above your pay grade. Nawmean?
master gumby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 262

I luv the intrawebs

The Raven · · SoCo · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0
David Baltz wrote:

More power to you!  I respect that style.  Sorry to hijack the thread for my rant.

No problem David. You were working off of incomplete info but offered the kind of response that is valid. We should question the motives of others. If not we all end up like poor Burchey. Dude can't even figure out who he is. 

Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45

Did you free it?

The Raven · · SoCo · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 0
Eric Chabot wrote: Did you free it?

Yes. Both of us have led every pitch. Goes at 12c if interested.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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