Belaying from above with masterpoint at feet

Jon Browher wrote: Headed to Acadia next weekend. Would love to see some insights on managing this stance. Unlike most of what you see in NH. Would be using a GriGri. 

If you use a gri-gri belaying on the ground like this, you gotta have something propping the device up off the ground so it cant be held against the ground when the follower weights the rope. Obviously this could defeat the cam. Shoes, a backpack, a thick branch etc. The reason people are talking about munters so much in this thread is that they don't have this problem.

Ted Pinson wrote: Yep!  Just don’t use a Yosemite Finish on your 8.

To clarify further (since it isn't intuitive or obvious) tests have shown that a fig-8 follow through knot with the Yosemite finish can roll and fail at scary low loads when ring-loaded.  

revans90 wrote:

Fuck yeah

Until you sneeze. If you belay with a minter you need a hands free backup like a friction hitch on the lower at the very least

Nick Boccia wrote:

Until you sneeze. If you belay with a minter you need a hands free backup like a friction hitch on the lower at the very least

you also need a backup for an atc in guide mode, not to mention the rigging. And you probably need a redirect for the grigri, and a good position to keep the lever opened, and you only have one free hand for the rope...

I frequently extend myself from a tree/ground anchor to the edge of the climb, then clove a grigri into that line (or the climber side) and belay from there.  it also means if somehow you've created the "pinned" issue described above that you can just move the belay device up or down the line to find a more comfortable spot.  Maybe I'm missing something that's obviously wrong with this, but I've been doing that for years.  

An alternative if you are really concerned with the "pinching" or whatever is to belay with a redirect where the redirect carabiner is just cloved into the line, not into the masterpoint.  

As others have mentioned, attaching yourself (tightly) to your masterpoint and positioning at the cliff edge and belaying off harness (or, preferably off your tie in loops) works fine and it's not really hard to avoid leg pinching. This is the overwhelmingly dominant technique I see people use here in the UK, since this sort of anchoring scenario is really common both on the sea cliffs and on the grit.

If I expect a struggle from my second and want to use guide mode, I will clove hitch a carabiner to the line coming down from my actual master point and put a reverso on that.  This way I can still use the autolocking to my advantage and be completely out of the belay system if desired, but still have the device close enough to the edge that I can appropriate mind and reduce dragging the rope over the edge.

Depending on how far back your masterpoint is from the cliff edge, the stretch in your rope may allow your points to move a bit more than you'd like.  If I think this will be an issue I tend toward the first method where I can get the rope tighter with my body weight and by stance effectively stay in place.

Whether I have a single rope tied to my masterpoint or a line going through and double backed depends on how much rope I have available/how much I feel like dragging rope around that day.  Single rope benefit: neater, requires less rope. Double backed benefit: less steps, less give in the system.

I climb at the North Shore of MN a lot, and this is the typical set up:  

1) Make an anchor and extend it to about a 2 feet short of the edge of the cliff; use a tube style device, NOT a Gri Gri. There has been at least one death associated with someone going to the talus from a GG being locked open due to cam being defeated.

2) Clip the ATC into the master point, use a daisy or sling to clip yourself to the anchor. Sit next to the anchor, feet over the edge, and the rope running over a PADDED edge. If you are right handed, sit on the left side of the anchor, DO NOT run this over the top of your leg. The loaded side will automatically be on the bottom, the belay strand will be on top.

3) Lower climber, or have them rap while tied in if that is your preference.

4) You can easily take up rope if you set the anchor back 18-24", and still have your brake hand in a position to provide breaking correctly.

5) Have fun

Jon Browher wrote: Headed to Acadia next weekend. Would love to see some insights on managing this stance. Unlike most of what you see in NH. Would be using a GriGri. 

Cliff tops are the worst place to use a GriGri.  Your anchor is on the ground, not above you. The physics of the GriGri want the load strand to be facing down, and that flips the GG upside down and has the potential to defeat the camming action of the device. 

Just use an ATC, it is that simple.

Daniel James wrote: 
If I expect a struggle from my second and want to use guide mode, I will clove hitch a carabiner to the line coming down from my actual master point and put a reverso on that.  This way I can still use the autolocking to my advantage and be completely out of the belay system if desired, but still have the device close enough to the edge that I can appropriate mind and reduce dragging the rope over the edge.

This is the method I was trying to describe above.  It seems to be the solution the original poster should consider and is what I use quite frequently at the top of routes in the gunks where a tree anchor is set back from the edge. 

The situation the OP describes is very common on the North Shore of MN.

We typically place the pro then use webbing or static line to extend the master point within a few feet of the cliff edge.  We then belay directly off the master point with a grigri. The belayer uses a personal anchor to clip in above the master point.

We pad the edge of the cliff.

Over ten years of use this system seems to work very well without any issues of rope drag, rope wear, or the grigri getting obstructed by the cliff edge.

The location of the master point and grigri even makes rigging an 3:1 assist rather easy. 

Buck Rio wrote:

Cliff tops are the worst place to use a GriGri.  Your anchor is on the ground, not above you. The physics of the GriGri want the load strand to be facing down, and that flips the GG upside down and has the potential to defeat the camming action of the device. 

Just use an ATC, it is that simple.

I would echo this.  Even belaying off of your harness is weird when the Gri is upside down, and you don’t get the added friction in an ATC.  Best of both worlds is the Pivot: true Guide Mode autoblock with easy lowering.

Buck Rio wrote:

Cliff tops are the worst place to use a GriGri.  Your anchor is on the ground, not above you. The physics of the GriGri want the load strand to be facing down, and that flips the GG upside down and has the potential to defeat the camming action of the device. 

Just use an ATC, it is that simple.

I have to disagree. 

If you set your master point correctly the grigri will stay ‘upright’.  I’ve been doing a top rope, top belay like this for years without issue. 
As for using an ATC you can sill run into the same issue of ‘flipping’ the device if your master point isn’t oriented correctly.  I don’t use an ATC in this type of situation because ot become difficult to get in the right position to lock off unless the belayer is hanging over the cliff with the ATC. 

Unless the edge is really sharp, throw a backpack under the master point to get it a couple inches off the ground, and belay from the MP with your Grigri. I'd only bother extending over the edge if both belayer and climber are rapping down. drag isn't much of an issue for top managed TR systems. If your climber flailed, it would also be nice to have that extra room for a z-drag to help them back up. 

Chad Miller wrote: The situation the OP describes is very common on the North Shore of MN.

We typically place the pro then use webbing or static line to extend the master point within a few feet of the cliff edge.  We then belay directly off the master point with a grigri. The belayer uses a personal anchor to clip in above the master point.

We pad the edge of the cliff.

Over ten years of use this system seems to work very well without any issues of rope drag, rope wear, or the grigri getting obstructed by the cliff edge.

The location of the master point and grigri even makes rigging an 3:1 assist rather easy. 

Common at Acadia too. Works for me really smooth on the rare occasion of wanting to top rope with a top belay. I usually time my visits to low tide and belay from below.

Chad Miller wrote:

I have to disagree. 

If you set your master point correctly the grigri will stay ‘upright’.  I’ve been doing a top rope, top belay like this for years without issue. 
As for using an ATC you can sill run into the same issue of ‘flipping’ the device if your master point isn’t oriented correctly.  I don’t use an ATC in this type of situation because ot become difficult to get in the right position to lock off unless the belayer is hanging over the cliff with the ATC. 

We'll have to disagree then. Because there are documented cases of the GriGri inverting and defeating the cam and the person being lowered died. I was there. The grigri was attached correctly, but the climber was heavy, and the belayer could not keep the gg from inverting. It is the poorest choice for a belay device in this situation.

And at the NS there are no other options than to have your belay device ON THE GROUND. Look at the OP picture, no chance to elevate the device. This system has been used for many decades.

And no, you can't invert an ATC in this situation, unless you lack critical thinking skills and rig it wrong. The rope going to the climber is on the bottom,  the belay strand is on the top. The whole shebang sits on a piece of carpet. I guess you could intentionally put a twist in the master point that may make it invert.

There will be people who insist on using a grigri even when it is second best (or third if you count the Munter). Good luck to you.

EDIT: There is one climb that works well with a grigri...rapprochement. 3 ft. stone wall that you extend the master point over and can hang in space.

We’ll just have to disagree. 

Chad Miller wrote: We’ll just have to disagree. 

BORING!

Tough titties. 

Chad Miller wrote: Tough titties. 

That's misogynistic and offensive to women.

Bad ballsack