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AAC Climbing Report

TJ Brannen · · Denver · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 75

The idea that NO barriers exists seems probably untrue- I don't know that I feel confident enough to put forth what they might be, but I think demographically we can see some sort of difference represented. ~80% of American climbers are white, while about 60% of Americans generally are white folks. Black people are about 13% of America but only 1% of climbers! Surely that points to something going on, right? Unless we think, I dunno, black folks are less adventurous or something, which is a silly assertion. If there's a difference like that that's hard to account for, shouldn't we explore what it might be?

Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 25

I advocate leveling out the barriers for golf (probably even more disparities) before climbing.

As Marie Antoinette once said, “let em play golf”

But this is admittedly from a selfish, self-serving point of view.....

Edit:  to clarify, this was meant simply about raw numbers of new climbers diverted to golf- a sport I don’t give a rat’s ass about. Not about demographics of new climbers.  In hindsight that might not have been clear.  

Soft Catch · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0
Mark Pilate wrote: I advocate leveling out the barriers for golf (probably even more disparities) before climbing.
Mark may be joking but he has a point.

If you care about social causes, getting minorities into climbing is probably the least significant way you can help them.

Climbing offers no economic benefits. It's not going to help someone's career or family status. It's not a great business networking forum. No poor kid of any race gets a degree from a good college because of a climbing scholarship.

The demographic of climbers is mostly the children of people who are already comfortable. Climbing is not a path to opportunity in life, it is a path that is more likely after other opportunities have been realized.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
FosterK wrote:

...Access to mentors, teachers, and knowledge policed (in whole or in part) by racist, sexist, or homophobic persons is certainly a barrier. ...


LOLZ, this is completely silly.  when i learned to climb i didn't have any mentors, or teachers.  many of the folks that i climb with learned in a similar manner.  you just went out and did it, tried not to die, and hopefully learned from your mistakes.  you're saying "knowledge is policed..." - what, do people not have access to the internet, or climbing magazines, or books, etc...  your whole argument is just regurgitating some ludicrous speech that some overly sensitive soul has drummed into your head.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
TJ Brannen wrote: The idea that NO barriers exists seems probably untrue- I don't know that I feel confident enough to put forth what they might be, but I think demographically we can see some sort of difference represented. ~80% of American climbers are white, while about 60% of Americans generally are white folks. Black people are about 13% of America but only 1% of climbers! Surely that points to something going on, right? Unless we think, I dunno, black folks are less adventurous or something, which is a silly assertion. If there's a difference like that that's hard to account for, shouldn't we explore what it might be?

So the ethnicity of the population of participants in every sport should be proportional to the general population?  Someone should look into the NBA.

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67
slim wrote:

LOLZ, this is completely silly.  when i learned to climb i didn't have any mentors, or teachers.  many of the folks that i climb with learned in a similar manner.  you just went out and did it, tried not to die, and hopefully learned from your mistakes.  you're saying "knowledge is policed..." - what, do people not have access to the internet, or climbing magazines, or books, etc...  your whole argument is just regurgitating some ludicrous speech that some overly sensitive soul has drummed into your head.

Cute, but this what nearly every climbing and SAR organization preaches against. The need for mentors and teachers, specifically for new climbers, is something reiterated on this forum on nearly every thread in the beginner forum. So let's be realistic and deal with the culture we have - the community consensus advocates for new climbers to find mentors and teachers and that book learning is not sufficient. It's not a stretch to ask what, if any barriers, exist in accessing that for people.

TJ Brannen · · Denver · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 75
Eric wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that the only explanation for differences in outcome among racial groups is racism???

Oh my god dude, no, I made no such suggestion at all- I was explicit that I was NOT saying something like that. Just pointed out a demographic difference. I don't think I even said I think it's bad, just worth understanding... Get some reading comprehension, y'all!

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67
Eric wrote: FosterK: "If only black people liked what I like, they could heal, relax and benefit from adopting my culture"

The world does not revolve around you, dear white savior.

*shrugged* either you read the linked articles or your didn't.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

Increasing diversity is in the best financial interests of REI and the rest of the climbing industrial complex.
More climbers, bigger market, more sales, more profit.
As long as that remains true, there will continue to be folks pushing the issue.

BITD if you wanted to climb, you did whatever was needed to get started.
Found a local climbing club (the RCS in my case,) read FOTH, or just borrowed your Mom's clothesline.
The idea that there were a bunch of mentors around is total fantasy.

Honestly, most would be climbers would be better served if it was more difficult to get started these days.
It's a dangerous activity with little tangible reward outside the satisfaction of just climbing itself.
It's stupid.
Nobody should climb unless they just can't not climb.

TJ Brannen · · Denver · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 75
Eric wrote: 
So what were you hinting at?
Simply that there is clearly a demographic difference, and it's worth trying to figure out why that might be. If it's just people choosing or not choosing to climb, cool! If (IF!) there's something else, it can be addressed.
TJ Brannen · · Denver · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 75
Eric Engberg wrote:

So the ethnicity of the population of participants in every sport should be proportional to the general population?  Someone should look into the NBA.

Also, this is apples to oranges. As this thread keeps insisting, climbing is seemingly a low barrier sport to access- all you've gotta do is show up at the gym. The NBA requires years of training, a lot of natural talent, the right physique, luck... A better comparison would be people who climb 5.15, maybe? There's not exactly a conversation about the diversity of the very best climbers in the world, because that would be pretty silly...

David Skudra · · Bellingham, WA · Joined Apr 2019 · Points: 51
TJ Brannen wrote: Eric wrote: 
Simply that there is clearly a demographic difference, and it's worth trying to figure out why that might be. If it's just people choosing or not choosing to climb, cool! If (IF!) there's something else, it can be addressed.

Simplest explanation would be household income. Climbing really isn't all that expensive but I'd wager the barrier still exists. Having the money to spend on gear, private transportation to get to the crag, and above all else time, is still a barrier.

Mark brought up a good point above though, about not climbing unless you can't not climb. I don't feel like climbing is the kind of thing we should be forcing some specific criteria on for how demographics should be split up, it's a dangerous sport with little reward other than your own satisfaction.

Let's stick to making sure that there is fair demographic representation at library reading clubs, and money spent to help get low income kids into activities like soccer. Rock climbing is an entirely different beast that doesn't need diversity quotas in any capacity.
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

I haven't seen "white privilege" referenced yet. But it's coming.

Soft Catch · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0
TJ Brannen wrote: Eric wrote: 
Simply that there is clearly a demographic difference, and it's worth trying to figure out why that might be. If it's just people choosing or not choosing to climb, cool! If (IF!) there's something else, it can be addressed.

I think most of the difference can be explained by demographic factors that are independent of race: economics, education, etc. Although you technically don't need a lot money to be climber, having financial security makes any time-consuming hobby easier and less stressful. Many of the Stonemasters were trust fund babies. Blacks are not represented in the middle and upper class as much as whites, and that's where most climbers come from.

There are probably some other factors, like geography. There's aren't many mountains in the south and industrial east where most American blacks live. There's lots of climbing in the west where there are fewer blacks. But the primary factors are economic.
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