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Moses Tomahawk pitons with faulty cables!


Theron Moses · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 345

Yuki,

I sincerely apologize that the gear failed you when you needed it most and you had this accident.  There are no excuses for this.  I strive to uphold a high degree of craftsmanship in all the items I make.  I am saddened that I have not lived to up to that and you suffered a fall because of it 

I have ceased manufacturing of climbing products while I am reevaluating all the manufacturing that I do.  I may just drop all cabled product from my line up or all climbing products.  I don't like to be kept up at night worrying about my products being a risk to climbers.

Link to webpage statement:
http://mosesclimbing.us/product-safety-advisory/mosesclimbing.us/product-sa…

I have contacted the affected dealers so they can spread the word and I can replace the cables as soon as possible.  

Please send Tomahawks for repair to:

Moses Enterprises
6941 C Sycamore Rd.
Atascadero, CA 93422

I am sorry for any inconvenience this puts on anyone.

Sincerely,

Theron Moses

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 275

Classy response, Theron. Nice.

Yuki Weber · · Somerville, MA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0
Theron Moses wrote: Yuki,

I sincerely apologize that the gear failed you when you needed it most and you had this accident.  There are no excuses for this.  I strive to uphold a high degree of craftsmanship in all the items I make.  I am saddened that I have not lived to up to that and you suffered a fall because of it 

I have ceased manufacturing of climbing products while I am reevaluating all the manufacturing that I do.  I may just drop all cabled product from my line up or all climbing products.  I don't like to be kept up at night worrying about my products being a risk to climbers.

I am sorry for any inconvenience this puts on anyone.

Sincerely,

Theron Moses

Hi Theron,

Thanks for the kind email! I think this is an honorable way to deal with the situation (great respect for that!), and I hope that the climbers understand the challenges small businesses like yours are facing, especially considering the technical issues with swaging in general! I really love your products, and I sincerely hope that your business is not negatively affected by this whole cable story!

Best,
Yuki
A. B. · · San Diego · Joined Mar 2018 · Points: 41

I have come to find that Fish products are worthy of bigwalls.
Other brands, not so much.

Erik Sloan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 144

The cables on beaks, even the thicker (#3, but not as thick as #4) one that Moses uses, do not hold up well. Worse, the wires typically start to come apart a few at a time, causing many pokey little things that irritate you while you're climbing (they don't just wear out, or break, they just break a few little wires at a time, so they still look good but have pokey spikes sticking out and are compromised, strength-wise)......just taking the cables off all the beaks, because they don't work, seems like an easy common sense solution.

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 290
A. B. wrote: I have come to find that Fish products are worthy of bigwalls.
Other brands, not so much.

Russ doesn’t make beaks.  Moses are the best thing going save for the recent hiccup. 

Hayden robinson · · Curry village, Yose · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 125

Dude if you used them before those cables where compromised by you, I always back up sling my beaks and I carry boat loads of webbing and cord to re sling with because I’ve had swagges blow. Welcome to the world of aid climbing, ya gotta improvise and back up your gear. We all sling up our bd beaks because we know they are thin, Moses cables are better but just one hammer hit can compromise so its on you for whipping and not being caught, no one else

Hayden robinson · · Curry village, Yose · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 125

Honestly if your blaming Moses has stoped him from doing the public service he does, that’s on you, we all accept the risks of what we do, we think for our self and back our cables up because that’s what we do. If your complaining about taking a whip on an A2 pitch just go sport climbing in boulder canyon. We all do dangerous stuff, yer gunna diiii, it’s not on Moses to be responsible for our lives, thats on us, he just welds the tools that we use to make our own decisions

Michael Beerens · · Germany · Joined Apr 2019 · Points: 0
Hayden robinson wrote: Honestly if your blaming Moses has stoped him from doing the public service he does, that’s on you, we all accept the risks of what we do, we think for our self and back our cables up because that’s what we do. If your complaining about taking a whip on an A2 pitch just go sport climbing in boulder canyon. We all do dangerous stuff, yer gunna diiii, it’s not on Moses to be responsible for our lives, thats on us, he just welds the tools that we use to make our own decisions

That makes no sense at all. When I buy a piece of pro, I pay the manufacturer to sell me a product I can rely on. I shouldn‘t have to question every pieces strenght. If the cable is kinked or partially destroyed, it is on me to repair it. It‘s not a climbers job to question a relatively new product if it still looks good.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,196
Hayden robinson wrote: Honestly if your blaming Moses has stoped him from doing the public service he does, that’s on you, we all accept the risks of what we do, we think for our self and back our cables up because that’s what we do. If your complaining about taking a whip on an A2 pitch just go sport climbing in boulder canyon. We all do dangerous stuff, yer gunna diiii, it’s not on Moses to be responsible for our lives, thats on us, he just welds the tools that we use to make our own decisions

I wonder if Theron wants you speaking for him? I’d doubt he’d want this message directed at a customer who just stared down two consecutive coffin nails that came out of his shop and yet has seemingly forgave him. He’d probably say that’s on you.

K Weber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 15
Russ Walling wrote:

Nuts are swaged too... but, the larger the company the LESS likely there will be a failure.  But with that being said, this should NEVER happen.  It just CANT happen.... but it did, meaning Moses was not doing ALL THEY COULD to insure the quality of the swages on their gear.  That is troubling at best, and negligent at worst.


There have been other cases of things like rivet hangers having the cable pull and pretty giant rippers on a ladder on El Cap.  Those hangers were bought at the Yosemite Mountain Shop.  They were made by a small manufacturer back east I think.  Frikken scary... if I lived through some A5 crux and then had a rivet hanger fail and took the big ride and got fucked up... when I was healed up (if still alive) I swear to Satan I would go and choke the shit out of whoever made that dogshit piece.

Bummer this happened.  It should never happen.

Edit to add:  this is specifically talking about when the cable pulls through the swage sleeve... not broken cables, kinked cables, or wires failing due to bad angles and big forces.

How many rivit hangers, copperheads, and other swagged cable items were made in Camp 4 or at the Deli by Tucker and Russ?

Brandon Adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 1,019

Theron,

PLEASE continue making Tomahawks. They are the best beak pitons available, by a long shot. Sorry to hear that the cables are no good on recent batches but I will always have complete faith in the pitons themselves.

Russ Walling · · Overlord @ FishProducts · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 3,426
Hayden robinson wrote: Dude if you used them before those cables where compromised by you, I always back up sling my beaks and I carry boat loads of webbing and cord to re sling with because I’ve had swagges blow. Welcome to the world of aid climbing, ya gotta improvise and back up your gear. We all sling up our bd beaks because we know they are thin, Moses cables are better but just one hammer hit can compromise so its on you for whipping and not being caught, no one else.  

Honestly if your blaming Moses has stoped him from doing the public service he does, that’s on you, we all accept the risks of what we do, we think for our self and back our cables up because that’s what we do. If your complaining about taking a whip on an A2 pitch just go sport climbing in boulder canyon. We all do dangerous stuff, yer gunna diiii, it’s not on Moses to be responsible for our lives, thats on us, he just welds the tools that we use to make our own decisions

Nice troll or about the dumbest thing I’ve read all month... and that’s saying something
Jeremy Aslaksen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 220

2 cables blowing is lightweight. My buddy Tom has 6 in a row blow way up on Sunkist (turned a short fall into a 60 footer). They weren't his beaks and boy was he pissed. CLASSIC.

BTW, I always swage my beaks/Spectres and bounce them before use. Safety first and all. Check your cables kids.

Blake Neville · · Lexington, KY · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 57

So now I have a question. How strong are the pins themselves? I hadn't even realized they were considered body weight only placement until I read the safety advisory. I've heard of them catching falls and being placed as pro on free climbs. Is this just the same as placing an RP? I assumed they looked pretty damn strong, am I wrong?

Yuki Weber · · Somerville, MA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0
Hayden robinson wrote: Dude if you used them before those cables where compromised by you, I always back up sling my beaks and I carry boat loads of webbing and cord to re sling with because I’ve had swagges blow. Welcome to the world of aid climbing, ya gotta improvise and back up your gear. We all sling up our bd beaks because we know they are thin, Moses cables are better but just one hammer hit can compromise so its on you for whipping and not being caught, no one else

Please read the story carefully! The cables were brand-new and what failed was the SWAGE connection, NOT the cable!

Cryin Sheridan · · Western US · Joined Jan 2019 · Points: 1

Big Wall climbing is funny.

Yuki Weber · · Somerville, MA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0
Hayden robinson wrote: Honestly if your blaming Moses has stoped him from doing the public service he does, that’s on you, we all accept the risks of what we do, we think for our self and back our cables up because that’s what we do. If your complaining about taking a whip on an A2 pitch just go sport climbing in boulder canyon. We all do dangerous stuff, yer gunna diiii, it’s not on Moses to be responsible for our lives, thats on us, he just welds the tools that we use to make our own decisions

Hayden!

Believe me or not but I've had plenty of time to reflect on the risks I take in the past 13 years I've been climbing and mountaineering, and I've had several falls and accidents that were much more serious that this one, resulting in real injuries (so no need to educate me dude!).

Am I responsible for what I do? YES!
Am I responsible to check my gear for wear and tare? YES!
Am I responsible for a fall caused by a manufacturing error? NO (period!)

We all have to rely on gear that we buy! What would you say if your brand-new harness with no signs of damage came apart all of a sudden???

Billcoe · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 829
Yuki Weber wrote:

Hi Russ and Dante,

Thanks for your professional insights! I probably will never trust a swaged cable again, haha!
I was wondering if the cables that come with nuts are swaged too, or if that is some other kind of connection (e.g., soldered)?

Yup, typically wired nuts are swaged (not small brass HB's/DMM Imps etc wireds which are soldered). The thing is, places like Black Diamond and DMM have mfg and testing tools and protocols in place to test product before it goes out the door. You can get that with scale as they crank out a lot of product. BD/Chouinard use to test all things to 1/2 of their ultimate strength before they shipped. 

We got into doing cable assemblies for a worldwide Mfg. The assemblies were eye to eye 12" long 1/16 PVC with SS wire which were used on cabinet doors to keep them from opening all the way. Started out making a couple hundred, next thing we knew we were getting orders for thousands. Ours were testing out to 195ft lbs approx, which was overkill for that application. Not so much if you weight 200lbs and are standing on it half way up El Cap. 

At approx 10,000 1/16" sized swedges, the Nicopress jaws would start to break via hairline cracks. I'm putting this up there for Theron to eyeball. Cagey old fucks like Russ at Fish or John Yates most likely figured this out when I was still pre-sperm/egg so this is for those who don't know it.  Eventually, we did a Pneumatic press with hardened steel tooling which was faster and longer lasting. Might have lasted forever if the business hadn't gone to China. We still do a few hundred larger cables (1/8" x 3') every 6 months and the manual Nicos work fine for that as it's not worth tooling up for the Pneumatic press.


Yuki, thanks for the community service/heads up. Appreciated man.
Malcolm Daly · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 380

Hey Theron,

Many thanks for the great responses to the cable issue. Sounds like you’re dealing well with it.

Back in my Trango days we had 3-4 recalls and I found that the best way to deal with it was to get out in front of it as soon possible. In each case, I personally got on the horn and call every dealer who we had shipped the suspect product to, followed up with a brodcast fax (remember those?) to all dealers, regardless of whether they’d bought the suspect product or not. The next day I’d call every climber friend I knew who was likely to have purchased or been given the product and ask them to return it.

If it was a product we’d shipped to REI they’d make us file a report with a CPSC within a few days. Funny thing with the CPSC was that when we’d hear back from them, usually 2-3 years after our recall was over and all the suspect products had been inspected, replaced or destroyed, their response was always that our defective product didn’t create a significant danger to public safety and we didn’t have to do a recall.

We’d always get a laugh out of that. I wish I’d saved and framed those letters.

Whatever, let me know if I can help I any way,

Mal

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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