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More Tensleep Drama


Redyns · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 60
Deez Nuts wrote: Redyns, imagine if Gluey went to those places and manufactured/chipped/glued climbs in order to generate more business for himself before moving into the next crag/guidebook.

Hopwood, does turning a blind eye to manufacturing/chipping/drilling a shared resource for an individual's profit/ego sound like the right approach?

(Editted to address caughtoutside's point)

Deez, that ALREADY exists at all of the aforementioned locations. 

Tradman Man · · Lake Forest · Joined May 2012 · Points: 0
Old lady H wrote:

Here is another consideration for those setting policy. What about the old bolted routes? I have two areas that have been closed to "development" for decades now, but still not exactly closed to "climbing". Which means those bolts are getting really, really, ancient. Do you follow the "rules" and leave that history there until it falls out (hopefully without any injuries), or, break the rules and risk making access issues worse? Just another non-binary decision to make, and a hard one, at that. This, I'd far rather have a climbing coalition working on, tthan "rogue" individuals possibly making things worse....for decades more.

Best, Helen

It is worth repeating "ACTION" speaks louder than words.  Individuals are destroying the rock for profit, fame and egos!...your advice is to get a bunch of politically correct groups like the BBC and talk.  I read the whole BBC web page yesterday, every word!  What I took away from their website is they advertise for their sponsors and their #one priority is building toilet.  Noting about saving the rock for future generations!       

David Carrera · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 15
caughtinside wrote:

 He’d do it... for free. 

Hell, he PAYS to do it.  Louie has been beyond prolific all these years, I'd guess he's ten's of thousands of dollars into it at this point. I thought at one point he'd said he'd spent 10K on the Quarry alone (I could be wrong but that's my memory). Wasn't there one route that was something like 20 tubes of Sika? Do the math. If anything, like most bolters, it's probably more addiction.


As far as the vigilante part goes, I don't have a problem with that per se, but what's up with the anonymous part? I don't get that at all. R. Robbins was mentioned up thread; I don't believe he would have done it under the cover of darkness and anonymously.
the schmuck · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 115
Tradman Man wrote:

It is worth repeating "ACTION" speaks louder than words.  Individuals are destroying the rock for profit, fame and egos!...your advice is to get a bunch of politically correct groups like the BBC and talk.  I read the whole BBC web page yesterday, every word!  What I took away from their website is they advertise for their sponsors and their #one priority is building toilet.  Noting about saving the rock for future generations!       

With all due respect, building a toilet in a heavily trafficked riparian environment is WAY more important than preventing a few (a lot) of manufactured holds. 

ninjavan1sh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 0
EFS wrote: anyone who thinks that a rock climbing guidebook anywhere aside from huge major crags is making some kind of big monetary profit has been sniffing the glue youre all talking about.....

i dont think anyone thinks anyone is making tons of cash off guide books, especially crag specific/local ones.  But he IS making money off them.  he would not publish them if it was not for the money - no one would.  If he or anyone who has gone through the near insane effort of putting together a book wanted to gift it to the world, there are much simpler ways then having them physically published and that is just the truth.

Everyone deserves to earn a living. How we do it is another story.
Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 10
the schmuck wrote:

With all due respect, building a toilet in a heavily trafficked riparian environment is WAY more important than preventing a few (a lot) of manufactured holds. 

Do both.   Make the self-serving shitbirds in question dig the pit.  

Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

So how about Gluey manufacture a shitter before manufacturing any more routes? He clearly has the time and energy.

Ego.

caughtinside · · Oakland CA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,450
Deez Nuts wrote: So how about Gluey manufacture a shitter before manufacturing any more routes? He clearly has the time and energy.

Ego.

The guy has installed shitters, a shower house and a hotspot. $5 a night? hahaha

Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

Seems odd that BCC, which his wife was part of, has a top priority of building a shitter then. Apparently there is a lot of shit up there.

Putting in a shitter has got to be easier, faster, cheaper, and far more acceptable to land managers than sand blasting, chipping, and glueing mediocre routes.

caughtinside · · Oakland CA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,450
Deez Nuts wrote:  Apparently there is a lot of shit up there.

I mean, have you spent much time around climbers?

Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

Enough to know that the recent (and early-90's) trend of veganism (vegetarianism) produces much more solid waste (and TP) than the high protein animal based diets.

J T · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 0
Old lady H wrote:

Here is another consideration for those setting policy. What about the old bolted routes? I have two areas that have been closed to "development" for decades now, but still not exactly closed to "climbing". Which means those bolts are getting really, really, ancient. Do you follow the "rules" and leave that history there until it falls out (hopefully without any injuries), or, break the rules and risk making access issues worse? Just another non-binary decision to make, and a hard one, at that. This, I'd far rather have a climbing coalition working on, tthan "rogue" individuals possibly making things worse....for decades more.

Best, Helen

Just to be clear, you'd rather have the BCC focus on old bolts replaced (which they already do a decent job of, not to mention TS is so tightly bolted it would take several failed bolts to result is some serious injuries) than address an issue, you yourself, say will make worse for decades to come...?

J T · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 0
Deez Nuts wrote: Enough to know that the recent (and early-90's) trend of veganism (vegetarianism) produces much more solid waste (and TP) than the high protein animal based diets.

I'd like to see some resources for this claim   

David Carrera · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 15
J T wrote:

I'd like to see some resources for this claim   

I was interested in this too. I didn't do an exhaustive search but did find this, which is kinda related:https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/going-vegan-isnt-actually-th/

Russ Walling · · Overlord @ FishProducts · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 3,426
ninjavan1sh wrote:

i dont think anyone thinks anyone is making tons of cash off guide books, especially crag specific/local ones.  But he IS making money off them.  he would not publish them if it was not for the money - no one would. 



Ever hear of the term "vanity press" as to books?

Tradman Man · · Lake Forest · Joined May 2012 · Points: 0

Bighorn Climbing Coalition #1 priority is building a shit hole for climbers and others visitors.   Mission accomplished!!!  

I understand Bighorn Climbing Coalition haven't even brought a shovel to start digging their shit hole yet.  They do have lots of sponsors!...and just had a festival promoting themselves and all their hard work!  

The "Ten Sleep 18" had the courage took the action when nobody else would.  They did this to save some natural rock and give future climbers a chance at discovering new routes.   

Mark Rolofson · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 575

I have avoided weighing in on this thread, because I don't really have a dog in this fight.  It has been decades since I climbed in Ten Sleep, but I could certainly see climbing there again & hope that this conflict doesn't jeopardize climbing access.  Both sides (the route manufacturers & the bolt choppers) are out of hand & need to take a step back to look at their actions.  Those responsible for removing bolts & filling pockets need take responsibility for their actions by identiting themselves.  This situation needs meditation & all sides need to come to the negotiating table.  This needs to happen ASAP, before the situation gets anymore out of hand.  Situations like this can escalate & ultimately nobody wins.  We all stand to lose.

C Hopwood · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined May 2011 · Points: 3,523
Deez Nuts wrote: Redyns, imagine if Gluey went to those places and manufactured/chipped/glued climbs in order to generate more business for himself before moving into the next crag/guidebook.

Hopwood, does turning a blind eye to manufacturing/chipping/drilling a shared resource for an individual's profit/ego sound like the right approach?

(Editted to address caughtoutside's point)

Deez Nuts,

No one is turning a blind eye. This is a travesty that has garnered a lot of attention and needs to stop. It appears to have stopped though, at least for now. No further damage is being done. Major transgressors have owned up to it and promised not to repeat their actions. So I would advocate for a level headed discussion about what to do with existing routes, and action after community consensus is developed. Vigilante justice is a good way to start a bolt war, which benefits no one. 
Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

Hopwood, this HAS NOT stopped and WILL NOT stop. Gluey has done this same shit to countless rocks in CA (and elsewhere?) and he promised to stop at least once 15 years ago when he was confronted about his horrible glue and chipping jobs on perfectly climbable granite in socal. He will do it again, guaranteed.

Sounds like BCC knew about it all along, while the Mrs was sitting on the board. Surely she knew, if not helped, and let it continue until others spoke up. If that aint turning a blind eye not sure what is. Thank god someone spoke up and did something.

J T · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 0
Mark Rolofson wrote: I have avoided weighing in on this thread, because I don't really have a dog in this fight.  It has been decades since I climbed in Ten Sleep, but I could certainly see climbing there again & hope that this conflict doesn't jeopardize climbing access.  Both sides (the route manufacturers & the bolt choppers) are out of hand & need to take a step back to look at their actions.  Those responsible for removing bolts & filling pockets need take responsibility for their actions by identiting themselves.  This situation needs meditation & all sides need to come to the negotiating table.  This needs to happen ASAP, before the situation gets anymore out of hand.  Situations like this can escalate & ultimately nobody wins.  We all stand to lose.

What good would the 18 individuals identifying themselves do other than open themselves up to shitty MP comments filling their egos or offering worthless criticism? They know exactly what they did and have had it planned out for some time now. Those involved in this drama (and those who spend time in TS) know who was/are the main ring leaders of the 18.


Many of those  who did this chopping have attended the manufacturers meetings with all parties involved, I know this for fact. I would venture a guess that their motives are just as many have said here that that BCC is being timid with their actions. 
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Wyoming, Montana, Dakotas
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