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More Tensleep Drama


Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 311

Caught.... talking on the net IS easy. Have you ever wondered why there is not chipped out stuff at Suicide, Taquitz, Holcomb, Josh etc?
Gluey was forced to go find the worst choss, the ugly quarry’s the absolute dog shit places to do his craft. Why do you think he left the good popular spots alone?
Why?
Think on that one.

Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0
Except that mediation between user groups, or as in this case, mediation between factions within a single user group is not what the Access Fund does or even has the means to do.

That is an interesting comment. I seem to recall the AF trying to work out deals (i.e. mediate) in Unaweep, Queen Creek, Little Cottonwood, Indian Creek, Castle Rock, Moes, etc when there was a conflict between groups. Of course they worked w the land managers to do it.

But why was the 10z situation any different? My guess is they were so worried about climbers looking bad that they turned a blind eye to Gluey's bullshit. Or maybe Gluey is a big supporter. Either way, if their job is to protect access, they FAILED.

Under normal circumstances I don't want routes chopped, but in this case it was justified because none of the other actors were willing to step up do the right thing.

Gluey has been doing this shit for decades. His shit threatens access. BCC and AF knew what he was doing, if they didn't they are stupid worthless organizations. Therefore, they failed to protect access. Now they want to blame others. LAME.

Guy, mostly right, but not entirely. Some damage was done, but it was stopped right quick and Gluey moved into his quarry.
caughtinside · · Oakland CA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,450
Guy Keesee wrote: Caught.... talking on the net IS easy. Have you ever wondered why there is not chipped out stuff at Suicide, Taquitz, Holcomb, Josh etc?
Gluey was forced to go find the worst choss, the ugly quarry’s the absolute dog shit places to do his craft. Why do you think he left the good popular spots alone?
Why?
Think on that one.

Most of those areas don't lend themselves to good sport climbing.  Louie has done some routes out at Josh, and I think some have been somewhat "enhanced," although that is all old news.  Holcomb is ok. Who's to say? There are local areas where I live that I don't climb at because I don't like them as much as other spots. 

I think Gluey worked on the quarry because no one else was willing to do the insane amount of work required to make fun routes.  No one forced him out of Echo or a number of other crags.  
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 311
caughtinside wrote:

Most of those areas don't lend themselves to good sport climbing.  Louie has done some routes out at Josh, and I think some have been somewhat "enhanced," although that is all old news.  Holcomb is ok. Who's to say? There are local areas where I live that I don't climb at because I don't like them as much as other spots. 

I think Gluey worked on the quarry because no one else was willing to do the insane amount of work required to make fun routes.  No one forced him out of Echo or a number of other crags.  

The point is... he couldn’t make those places “good sport spots” because well- the locals would not allow his BS to start in the first place. 

Seems to me that he was able to find some fabulous spot- with little/ few locals and he went to town. It took a long time for them to catch on but by then it was too late. 
The gang of 18 should have been the gang of 1 or 2 way back and this whole mess would have been avoided. 
Julian H · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2017 · Points: 5
caughtinside wrote:

Do you think the Access Fund can preemptively figure out who is going to go complain to the Forest Service?  

They they knew about this thread and I’m pretty sure they have subscriptions to climbing magazines.  They should have gotten involved when then the published the articles were published. That way they could’ve say something like “Look how great we are” 

Pink Thunder · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 10

I'll dance with the Lizard. C'mon, let's tango.

J T · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 0
Deez Nuts wrote:
That is an interesting comment. I seem to recall the AF trying to work out deals (i.e. mediate) in Unaweep, Queen Creek, Little Cottonwood, Indian Creek, Castle Rock, Moes, etc when there was a conflict between groups. Of course they worked w the land managers to do it.

But why was the 10z situation any different? My guess is they were so worried about climbers looking bad that they turned a blind eye to Gluey's bullshit. Or maybe Gluey is a big supporter. Either way, if their job is to protect access, they FAILED.

Under normal circumstances I don't want routes chopped, but in this case it was justified because none of the other actors were willing to step up do the right thing.

Gluey has been doing this shit for decades. His shit threatens access. BCC and AF knew what he was doing, if they didn't they are stupid worthless organizations. Therefore, they failed to protect access. Now they want to blame others. LAME.


Guy, mostly right, but not entirely. Some damage was done, but it was stopped right quick and Gluey moved into his quarry.

Seriously! There were meditations in place between the BHCC and developers and this BS still occurred...action was needed and those who did the chopping certainly could have foreseen this coming. Honestly, the majority of climbers I have met and known from climbing there for the past 9+ years are pretty happy with the moratorium as this will certainly slow down manufacturing faster than having "meetings" where one party sweet talks those who had any real control over the land. 

the schmuck · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 115
Julian H wrote:

They they knew about this thread and I’m pretty sure they have subscriptions to climbing magazines.  They should have gotten involved when then the published the articles were published. That way they could’ve say something like “Look how great we are” 

What did you expect Access Fund to do? Send out the Access Fund Police to arrest Louie and erase the offending routes?

Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

I would expect the BCC and/or AF to do SOMETHING. Instead they just let Gluey keep at it and now blame the folks who DID take action.

When it became clear Gluey wasn't going to stop (decades ago) they should have informed the FS "there's this guy, he's not one of us, he needs to be stopped"... but only because it would be bad PR for the AF to punch his lights out.

Wasn't there some young punk who cut down a tree for a photo op in CA? A local exposed him publically, the FS investigated, he admitted he fucked up, he agreed to do some community service, nobody ever heard about him again, and the crag stayed open.

Surely the AF or BCC could have pulled something similar off years ago if they were worth their donations. But alas, they did nothing and now they'd rather blame the ones who actually did something to protect the resource than admit their sackless complacency.

Robert Hernandez · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 15
lloyd wrote: And for what it's worth, I'd rather they completely ban climbing, than let someone like Gluey carve and drill the place up, as he apparently felt was his unique right.

 This is a pretty nuanced issue and your obtuse comments amount to little more than terrorism of the climbing community. Either it's my way or no one gets to climb? I mean, talk about entitlement and self centered behavior; it's nearly the same level as Louie.   


Hell, at least Louie doesn't demand everyone do what he says or he's gonna get all climbing shut Down. As stupid as his chipping and gluing  is, and it is, it seems your more an enemy to my climbing than he is at this point. 

Self centered  climbers have always tended to be willing to destroy or create, anything and everything,  to achieve their version of heaven on earth; and regardless of their positions, they are the enemy of climbing. 

Furthermore, the access fund is a joke. They used my favorite climbing area as a sacrificial lamb. No attempts to protect access in a national recreation area with some of the best climbing I have been on. It was the most tragic loss I have experienced in climbing access. I could rail on this issue for hours but I don't want to get mad or depressed.  Don't expect them to do shit outside of Colorado,  you're gonna be disappointed. 
Mark E Dixon · · Sprezzatura, Someday · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 614
Deez Nuts wrote: 
Wasn't there some young punk who cut down a tree for a photo op in CA? A local exposed him publically, the FS investigated, he admitted he fucked up, he agreed to do some community service, nobody ever heard about him again, and the crag stayed open.

Joe Kinder, a well established pro climber at the time, put up a new route in Tahoe. He says he cut down a tree to make the route safer, as a falling climber might hit the tree and be injured.

A local photographer (climber?) started a social media campaign against Kinder and iirc, the FS did get involved.
Kinder apologized, did some public service (again, iirc) and put it behind him.
He stayed a sponsored climber until he got social media shamed by Sasha DiGiulian for 'bullying' her and his sponsors ran for cover.

Always thought Joe got a raw deal in both of these episodes, but I don't know him personally, and maybe he did deserve it.
Isn't he from Jersey or NYC or something? Could be some of that back east attitude doesn't play well everywhere.

A closer parallel to 10s would be the story of Ivan Greene, another pro climber.
He got caught chipping bouldering routes at the Gunks and did kind of disappear afterwards.

I think if Louie lost his business, via boycotts of his hold company, guidebooks, campground, etc, he might change his mind.
That would take principled behavior on the part of climbers throughout the US.
Which seems unimaginable.

I don't see what the Access Fund could have done.
Let's say the AF notified the FS about Louie's behavior.
Before all the other shenanigans.
Maybe the FS would have stopped Louie.
But what if they just went with a full closure then?
Kind of a risky move...

The moral- bolt and chipping wars almost never end well.
Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

Riskier than letting Gluey drill yet another crag into submission? Hardly.

If the FS went with full closer back then there would be a lot less damage to the rock and the AF and BCC would likely have more cred with both climbers and land managers. Right now it looks like they don't give a shit about preserving the resource, so why would the FS even consider letting more routes get developed?

Based on experience w mountain biking, you work WITH land managers to develop killer trails that meet their requirements. No matter how fun it is, you don't make 1000' bombs straight down an eroding hillslope that will be a gully in 5 years, and if you see some idiots damaging the area by doing that (or cutting switchbacks) you tell your access group (BCC and AF equivalents) and they inform their FS contacts so they can mitigate. You don't turn a blind eye because the offenders are "friends/spouses/donors" and wait for shit to get shutdown.

m Mobes · · MDI, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 905

The dude should have gone to Maple or some conglomerate canyon where pretty much anything goes. Too bad.

Guy is 100% right, should have been stomped out long ago by locals (if there are any besides the subject here). I guess the empty internet threats were just not good enough and stupid shit was destined to happen?

Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

Plenty of bad examples in Maple. But still, most of what has been done is quite different than drilling pockets in blank stone, which's just plain stupid. Besides, I heard Gluey tried his hand at Maple and couldn't make 5 star 5.10s so he left.

Chase Horn · · Los Gatos, CA · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 2
Hubbard wrote: Louie, you did something great at the Riverside Quarry. Nobody complained because it was a quarry. Natural rocks are something different. It is obvious that the community at Ten Sleep are not stoked on what you are doing, and have been clear about it. Bolting itself is controversy enough but is generally accepted because most people don't want to die young. You are a creative guy and there is a perfect medium for your efforts. Indoor gyms are in their infancy as to what they could be. You have the skill and energy to build your own and make it the best one ever. Tearing up the outdoor areas with the drill is below the true artist. It is a fine line and you are crossing it. People are shitting on you. Think it over man. You can do better.

He has, and it is a freaking amazing gym, with inspired setters, and a truly special community. Was a proud member for years before moving out of the area, but I will forever be a part of the #FactoryFam. He should have one in every major city lol

Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

Sounds like he should stick to indoor gyms. Nothing wrong with that. But stop fucking drilling and chipping real rock... WTF!

Julian H · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2017 · Points: 5
the schmuck wrote:

What did you expect Access Fund to do? Send out the Access Fund Police to arrest Louie and erase the offending routes?


You know the usual stuff, be an intermediary and find a peaceful solution. What they are supposed to do represent the whole climbing community.  
But since they only banned new route development, it didn’t impact most of the climber
Deez Nuts · · Springfield · Joined May 2019 · Points: 0

If Gluey made a public apology, admitted he screwed up, denounced chipping/drilling real rock, and kept his shit in a gym/quarries where it belongs, I might actually forgive and somewhat respect the guy's talent. But after decades of debauchery and ignoring the ethics of the larger outdoor climbing community, I suspect that will never happen. I suspect he will never be able to admit to himself or anyone else he fucked up, just like he could never admit he never climbed Refiner's Fire. But he's old now, maybe he will finally be able to grow as a person and see the error of his ways?

lloyd · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2011 · Points: 0
Robert Hernandez wrote:

 This is a pretty nuanced issue and your obtuse comments amount to little more than terrorism of the climbing community. Either it's my way or no one gets to climb? I mean, talk about entitlement and self centered behavior; it's nearly the same level as Louie.   


Hell, at least Louie doesn't demand everyone do what he says or he's gonna get all climbing shut Down. As stupid as his chipping and gluing  is, and it is, it seems your more an enemy to my climbing than he is at this point. 

You're an utter halfwit. Trying to frame someone's opinion as some sort of existential threat to climbing boggles the mind, not to mention how you managed to work in all the high-emotion terms for your game of Buzzword Bingo. You should go back to twiddling your thumbs. "Terrorism" was particularly good. I nearly ruined my keyboard laughing at that one.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510

And now...A new episode of Sport Climbers Eating their Own!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Wyoming, Montana, Dakotas
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