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Outer Space whipper in Eldo yesterday


Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 10

Two very different climbers can climb the same route and place the exact same pro in the exact same place.....one climber placed it exactly when and where they wanted it  - totally cool.  But the other placed it only where they were able to - not so cool.

Point is that final judgment often depends on subtleties unavailable to the casual observer.

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 45
Tradiban wrote:

there's no formula for placing gear and choss assessment is a skill, a skill highly needed in Eldo.

Yes exactly. There is no formula. People get in trouble when they assume fast and light is adequate for Eldo because they are confident at grade, the terrain is "easy" for them, and they feel pressure (internal or external) to go fast. Accident analysis for this area shows that many injuries and fatalities could have been avoided by placing more pro. 

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 45

I'm somewhat surprised, tradiban, that you argue so strongly for using assisted braking belay devices yet you argue against placing pro on runout choss. Both are simple ways to guard against mistakes and bad luck, which affect even the most experienced climbers from time to time.

At any rate, this thread is about a big whipper in Eldo, which per the belayer's account could likely have been avoided if the leader had placed more pro. I'm glad the climbers were unharmed, and hope that people looking for accident analysis take away the lesson of erring on the side of placing more pro in terrain like Eldo where placements are more likely to fail and falls are seldom clean. 

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 877
Mark Pilate wrote: Zack -  I think you totally misunderstood Greg. 

Thanks Mark. He must have missed some of my sarcasm and context since he provided some 1973 wikki stuff. The logarithmic spiral has been studied for centuries and has existed in nature for billions of years, literally.  

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 255
Tradiban wrote:

I have climbed at Eldo and I'm aware of how chossy your best trad crag in Colo is. 

Oh, so you haven’t climbed at Lumpy?

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510
L Kap wrote: I'm somewhat surprised, tradiban, that you argue so strongly for using assisted braking belay devices yet you argue against placing pro on runout choss. Both are simple ways to guard against mistakes and bad luck, which affect even the most experienced climbers from time to time.

At any rate, this thread is about a big whipper in Eldo, which per the belayer's account could likely have been avoided if the leader had placed more pro. I'm glad the climbers were unharmed, and hope that people looking for accident analysis take away the lesson of erring on the side of placing more pro in terrain like Eldo where placements are more likely to fail and falls are seldom clean.

You fundamentally misunderstand climbing safely. It's about control. Control of your actions and your environment. You can't control what happens at the moment you are being locked off by your belayor, therefore, assisted braking. You CAN control your climbing, where you place gear, how you place gear, the holds you use, etc. 


It's so one-dimensional to think that the solution to huge whippers is to place more gear, the solution is to be in control of your climbing. Should she have placed another piece? Probably. Should she have anticipated a possible fall? Yes. Basically, to stay "safe" she shouldn't have fallen in the first place, which I know is so outside most people's comprehension that it causes chafing of the ego.

Steve Sangdahl · · eldo sprngs,co · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 735

^^^ Brings up the old maxim.....” The leader must not fall.”

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 45

Don't listen to tradiban, kids. Perfect mastery is an illusion. The long sad list of masters of our craft who died while climbing is testament enough to that.

Have the humility to know that mistakes happen. Accidents happen. Perfect placements don't always exist. Rock exfoliates over time, especially where it experiences freeze/thaw cycles. Holds fail. Gear pops. If you're always carrying / placing the minimum amount of gear you think you need, you will sooner or later be wrong.

Place more pro. Your family, friends, and safe climbing partners will thank you. So will the first responders who don't have to scrape you up.

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 45
Steve Sangdahl wrote: ^^^ Brings up the old maxim.....” The leader must not fall.”

As you probably know, that used to be the standard because they didn't have the gear and techniques we do today. Back in the days of swami belts, static ropes, and improvised pitons made out of metal bed frames in someone's garage, a leader fall was much more likely to cause serious injury or death.

Nowadays you can fall more safely, but it's silly to risk a longer and more dangerous fall than you have to just because you're posturing, peer pressured, or trying to get in more pitches in a day. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510
L Kap wrote: Don't listen to tradiban, kids. Perfect mastery is an illusion. The long sad list of masters of our craft who died while climbing is testament enough to that.

Have the humility to know that mistakes happen. Accidents happen. Perfect placements don't always exist. Rock exfoliates over time, especially where it experiences freeze/thaw cycles. Holds fail. Gear pops. If you're always carrying / placing the minimum amount of gear you think you need, you will sooner or later be wrong.

Place more pro. Your family, friends, and safe climbing partners will thank you. So will the first responders who don't have to scrape you up.

I figured you wouldn't understand and I know why you don't understand. The new generation is brought up to think the only difference between sport and trad is that in trad you "set your own gear". This couldn't be further from the truth.

Like I said, placing more gear, carrying extra gear are helpful things but ultimately it's not what will keep you safe, that's one dimensional thinking. The climber is the catalyst when "accidents" happen. You can control how you climb and what happens when you climb. If you don't believe you can, you never will.

When you can see mastery as a path you go down instead of a destination you arrive at, it starts to feel accessible and attainable. Most assume mastery is an end result, but at its core, mastery is a way of thinking, a way of acting, and a journey you experience. 
                                                                                                             
August McKinney · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 10

Does every thread on this site get this weird?

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,672
Tradiban wrote: When you can see mastery as a path you go down instead of a destination you arrive at, it starts to feel accessible and attainable. Most assume mastery is an end result, but at its core, mastery is a way of thinking, a way of acting, and a journey you experience.
                                                                                                             

Yes. Think of it as a path that you go down. And many places along the way, on any given lead, you may arrive at a situation of which you know you are not a master. 


Stay humble, my friends,
Greg Miller · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 1,225

+100 for trango cams still sucking

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 45
Tradiban wrote:


You can control how you climb and what happens when you climb. If you don't believe you can, you never will.

                                                                                                             

So your recipe is magical thinking, perfect judgment, and control over every variable. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Adrienne DiRosario · · Troy, NY · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 0
August McKinney wrote: Does every thread on this site get this weird?

Yes

Zacks · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 65
Greg Miller wrote: +100 for trango cams still sucking

agreed

Abandoned User · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 6,720
L Kap wrote: Don't listen to tradiban, kids. Perfect mastery is an illusion. The long sad list of masters of our craft who died while climbing is testament enough to that.

Have the humility to know that mistakes happen. Accidents happen. Perfect placements don't always exist. Rock exfoliates over time, especially where it experiences freeze/thaw cycles. Holds fail. Gear pops. If you're always carrying / placing the minimum amount of gear you think you need, you will sooner or later be wrong.

Place more pro. Your family, friends, and safe climbing partners will thank you. So will the first responders who don't have to scrape you up.

+1 sir. I have parents, friends, and a girlfriend I want to go back to at the end of the day in one piece. I leave my ego at home. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510
J V wrote:

+1 sir. I have parents, friends, and a girlfriend I want to go back to at the end of the day in one piece. I leave my ego at home. 

Apparently trad climbing is dead. Who knew?!

Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 10

I had my ego anodized for better wear and all season performance. 

Patrik · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 30
Tradiban wrote: As for breaking holds, pull down, not out and climb "light". If you break a hold and you were surprised you didn't assess your hold correctly.

  Perfect assessment of rock quality is an illusion. I've climbed a few hundred routes in Eldo and I have avoided dozens upon dozens and dozens of questionable holds. Many times I have had to crank on questionable holds (after placing appropriate gear) and none of those have ever failed me. Still, I have had two holds break on me with a big surprise. No, they were not loose flakes or chockstone/chickenhead pulling and there were no 'hollow' sounds. Both looked like solid integral parts of the rock with no indication whatsoever of questionability (wow, there's a new word for ya!). One was on a fairly popular route (The Bat) and everyone and his grandmother must have cranked on this jug. After it pulled, it was evident that a "spider web" of extremely fine roots of a plant had grown "inside" the rock and separated a chunk of it. There was just no way of telling this before it pulled off.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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