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J Tree Pure Negligence Accident May 5


Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,505
Josh C. wrote:

An interesting ethical conundrum. In a perfect world they probably should have stuck around to make sure everything turned out okay, you know, the whole brother's keeper thing. 

Yet, do we really want people policing crags to make sure people are being safe? Maybe every crag needs a crag host, kind of like a campground host. Isn't that part of why many of us got into climbing: the freedom of it and how we can climb how we want and no one is there to tell us how to do it. And how would this new paradigm translate into climbing protection? We start yelling at people from the ground who climb more than 10 feet above their pro? We start shaming people for climbing runouts, not wearing helmets, and not using prusiks and similar on rap?   

The whole safety thing does complicate the question. I see this same type of cognitive dissonance happening with wilderness.  My boss in the Forest Service out of Tahoe was fond of saying "The great thing about wilderness is that you have the right to die." We want an unmitigated wilderness experience with all the inherent dangers thrown in until the danger becomes, um well, dangerous. 

Not saying this is exactly what I believe, but just helping myself to mentally work through this little ethical dilemma.

I know absolutely nothing about the injured climber, but I am 100% certain that falling 30' onto his head is not what he envisioned when he got into climbing.

Paul Hutton · · Kansas City, MO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740
Jaren Watson wrote:

I know absolutely nothing about the injured climber, but I am 100% certain that falling 30' onto his head is not what he envisioned when he got into climbing.

When he got used to climbing in a gym and then took it outside. 

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,637
Josh C wrote:

Isn't that part of why many of us got into climbing: the freedom of it and how we can climb how we want and no one is there to tell us how to do it.

Yes - freedom has been a major motivator for me for ... well, forever.  And it is so even though the risk of death (or worse) comes with that freedom.

Interesting that I and Jaren have almost opposite in our reactions to Josh’s sentence above.  Hopefully, the world is big enough for both of us.
Forrset Pials · · New York, NYC · Joined Nov 2017 · Points: 0
Sloppy Second wrote: Yeah but Honnold wasn't playing music at a popular crag in a national park, so his accident wasn't karma.

Dude someone got seriously injured. Have some respect.

Sloppy Second · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0
Forrset Pials wrote:

Dude someone got seriously injured. Have some respect.

I do have respect for other climbers. That's why I don't play music at the crag.

Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,505
Bill Lawry wrote: Yes - freedom has been a major motivator for me for ... well, forever.  And it is so even though the risk of death (or worse) comes with that freedom.

Interesting that I and Jaren have almost opposite in our reactions to Josh’s sentence above.  Hopefully, the world is big enough for both of us.

It’s not, Bill. Death match?

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,637
Jaren Watson wrote:

It’s not, Bill. 

Maybe then we go to a kind of color code. Green pants for “ Please keep me safe” and red pants for “No thanks, I’m pretty sure I got this.”

Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,505
Bill Lawry wrote:

Maybe then we go to a kind of color code. Green pants for “ Please keep me safe” and red pants for “No thanks, I’m pretty sure I got this.”

Good idea!

Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 1
Jaren Watson wrote:

The kid deserved to be saved, even if his family was a bunch of wankers. Good on you for acting quickly.

Split second reaction, didn't involve thinking. So I hope all persons in the situation would behave he same way.

Gabriele Benvenuto · · Santa Ana, CA · Joined Dec 2018 · Points: 30
Buck Rio wrote:

Split second reaction, didn't involve thinking. So I hope all persons in the situation would behave he same way.

Unless youre a hardened psychopath, I don't think there's a single person here in this thread, (despite how savage some of the comments are), who wouldn't have rushed to his aid in some way.  Yes, even those talking about 'karma' for playing music.  Everyone came together instinctively and without hesitation to do whatever we could for this kid, and in retrospect it was honestly touching to see.  Watching your fellow human's blood splatter will do that to you.

Josh C · · Somewhere out West · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 1,120
Bill Lawry wrote: Interesting that I and Jaren have almost opposite in our reactions to Josh’s sentence above.  Hopefully, the world is big enough for both of us.

Perspective is key. Our view of the world is corrupted by our past experiences and deeply held beliefs. And your last sentiment towards Jaren, Bill, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Seriously, I Ilke it. 

Malcolm Daly · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 380

How is it that the “check your knots” mantra doesn’t include the knot in the end of your rope?

Climb safe,
Mal

apogee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 0

I dunno, Mal...but given the widespread sloppiness I see amongst 'new' generation climbers out there, I'm not especially optimistic that such details will get that kind of attention.

B Regan · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 120

If you see something, say something. Sometimes even climbers who know what they are doing make mistakes.  May this climber heal and be surrounded by love and compassion.  Positive thoughts of healing for the folks who witnessed it all, too. 

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

saw some kids setting up hammocks at the edge of a small cliff last weekend.  Music cranking, weed flowing.  had they been seasoned wooks with tattered old gear I would not have said anything but everything was too shiny and they looked like they still had egg shells stuck to their butts.  It looked to be the first time they had set these riggs up.  I explained that if they fell out of the east side of their hammock they would land on sharp pointy rocks and its a crappy place to do a carry out. If they fell out of the west side of the hammocks it's 40ft drop off to more pointy rocks. likely dead or wheelchair territory. they said they had it so we went climbing. they lived and by the sound of it had a blast... 

Anthony Reynolds · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 0
Gabriele Benvenuto wrote: Tina I understand where youre coming from..  Seeing someone take a ground fall right in front of you can cause a certain frustration when you realize it was due to gross negligence, and couldve been avoided.  I was there too, and felt the same thing.  I am however, amazed and relieved that he was able to walk out.
The one lingering question I have is if the rope was too short, how did he tie in?  If the route is 120ft and the rope 60m and the belayer was on the ground, the other end of the rope would be approx. 44ft off the ground, right?

I was there as well and was approaching white lighting as he fell and assisted afterwords... he had gear on the route so im pretty sure he led it on trad, set up anchor and was on his way down when he fell... still amazed he walked out of there

noelle ladd · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2017 · Points: 5

Anthony Reynolds wrote: I was there as well and was approaching white lighting as he fell and assisted afterwords... he had gear on the route so im pretty sure he led it on trad, set up anchor and was on his way down when he fell... still amazed he walked out of there.

If the guy that fell had been leading I'm curious what the plan was to have the belayer/follower climb and take the gear out if they understood the rope would not reach the ground and the leader would be down climbing a bit? Normally, the leader would belay the 2nd from the top of the climb if using a 60m rope (I'm not even sure a 70m reaches the ground on this climb...anyone?) and then both would rap off the rap rings much further over to climbers' right. In addition, normally the belayer would already be tied into the end before the leader sets off to climb...lots to be aware of before setting out to climb...sounds like possibly newer climbers not quite thinking things through or really knowing what to do. Perhaps the leader didn't know he would not reach the ground when being lowered.  The follower then did learn this info, but didn't think it through at that moment.... what are the lessons learned here?   know the info for the route you are climbing...you may need two ropes to rap.....if you see something sketchy...politely help out if possible...new climbers take a class/get mentored...there is so much to know that you don't know you need to know...climbing is dangerous...hope the climber is okay.

GDavis Davis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 10

People really like to lower and belay from the ground. It just "feels right," even if it isn't.

wing thing · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 85
noelle ladd wrote: Anthony Reynolds wrote: I was there as well and was approaching white lighting as he fell and assisted afterwords... he had gear on the route so im pretty sure he led it on trad, set up anchor and was on his way down when he fell... still amazed he walked out of there.

If the guy that fell had been leading I'm curious what the plan was to have the belayer/follower climb and take the gear out if they understood the rope would not reach the ground and the leader would be down climbing a bit? Normally, the leader would belay the 2nd from the top of the climb if using a 60m rope (I'm not even sure a 70m reaches the ground on this climb...anyone?) and then both would rap off the rap rings much further over to climbers' right. In addition, normally the belayer would already be tied into the end before the leader sets off to climb...lots to be aware of before setting out to climb...sounds like possibly newer climbers not quite thinking things through or really knowing what to do. Perhaps the leader didn't know he would not reach the ground when being lowered.  The follower then did learn this info, but didn't think it through at that moment.... what are the lessons learned here?   know the info for the route you are climbing...you may need two ropes to rap.....if you see something sketchy...politely help out if possible...new climbers take a class/get mentored...there is so much to know that you don't know you need to know...climbing is dangerous...hope the climber is okay.

A 70 mm rope will allow you to rappel just to a block that's about 10 feet high. From there, you can easily downclimb the rest of the way. However, you should tie the ends of both ends of the rope to prevent a 10 foot fall. I just climbed at Hemingway 2 weeks ago. 

x15x15 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 205
apogee wrote: I dunno, Mal...but given the widespread sloppiness I see amongst 'new' generation climbers out there, I'm not especially optimistic that such details will get that kind of attention.

I don't know. I tend to see it as more of a lack of a self preservation mindset than sloppiness.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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