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"Call Out" threads


Chris Blatchley · · Somerville, MA · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 7

I guess I should have clarified, I don't really care which way it goes, just that I think the rules should be clarified for whether or not your post gets deleted. Though I do think call outs with no chance of rebuttal are lame.

The heavy pack and rope thread was another example. It was one of my all time favorite threads, everybody got a chance to speak, then it was deleted.

Chris Blatchley · · Somerville, MA · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 7
Old lady H wrote: As one who has had a generous amount of crap aimed my way, early on particularly?

Surprisingly? I still come down on guideline  #1 being kept in mind, and that, plus flagging being sufficient. The vigorous back and forth very often, gets back to pretty good points.

The real difficulty, though, is that MP ONLY HAS ONE MODERATOR. People don't realize that "admin" is just a kind person who does stuff for the content on MP, not the forums. Forums are our responsibility. If someone is being an ass, call them out. If someone is being an ass in their replies, call them out. If you are the one targeted by an ass? Speak up. My experience with this? If you reply coherently and reasonably, MP will do so also. I also take it offline and actually talk to folks, "trolls" included. But, I'm a badass, unlike most of you snowflakes, eh? ;-)

TL,DR? Nick can't be expected to "moderate" every post ever made on here.

Best, Helen

Thanks Helen, I agree with pretty much every point here.

It's just the 5 percent of the time where it's unknown and not auditable.
MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
Old lady H wrote: TL,DR? Nick can't be expected to "moderate" every post ever made on here.

FWIW, I don't think Nick is moderating at all:

Nick Wilder wrote: I stopped working for MP/REI about a month ago.  I no longer manage users, deal with the forum, write code, fix bugs, or build features.  I am still a regular volunteer admin (like the ~150 other volunteers) and can edit routes and areas.
I think it is now "MP Team" that has been popping up here and there.
Chris Blatchley · · Somerville, MA · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 7
MojoMonkey wrote:

FWIW, I don't think Nick is moderating at all:

I think it is now "MP Team" that has been popping up here and there.

Even more reason to clarify what would get your post deleted with new minds behind the delete button

For the most part, I knew what would get deleted with Nick behind the wheel
Andrew Rational · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 10
Chris Blatchley wrote:Though I do think call outs with no chance of rebuttal are lame.
If the person being called out doesn’t know they are being called out, because they aren’t on MP, are they really being called out? If it crosses over to another forum, like Fakebook or Twits, what is stopping them from rebutting there, or even rebutting on MP? There are no barriers to making an account here on MP and responding...
Fritz :-) · · The Western Slope · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 430
Chalk Norris wrote: What happened to freedom of speach?

It got replaced by freedom of spelling. ;-)

The "How Should Gear Be Divided" turned antivaxxer thread was deleted at the OP's request, was my understanding. A pity, as it was pure MP gold.

A good rule of thumb for life as well as internet forums: if someone does something that you're bothered by, first approach the person privately and politely. If they won't listen, try again with a third party. After that point, it's fair game for calling people out in public, but be warned that those who sow the wind ...

Some call-out threads are no more than ad hominems disguised in public service's clothing. Others are necessary, perhaps justified. But if I've learned anything in my brief time here, it's that shit-talking online only leaves you with a bad taste in your own mouth.
Chalk Norris · · Brighton, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 130

^changed that for you fritz!! thanks for catching that.

MP Team · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2019 · Points: 4

Thanks for the thread, Chris, and to everybody else for voicing your opinion.

I get the frustration on both ends - too much moderation vs too little.... keep things on topic vs. killing the community ownership of the forum.

At the moment, the prime catalyst for deleting a post is when another MP'er flags it, pure and simple. A flag doesn't mean a post will automatically get removed, it just brings that post to my attention for review. Some posts are clearly jerk-y and thus easy to remove. Others, however, are deep into that grey zone..... which requires a deeerp dive to make the call. And then entire threads come sometimes go way off the rails, but the MP community self regulates and brings it back.... how to treat those?

Anyway, to the OP's question - doxxing is a clear violation IMHO and the post needs to be deleted. Calling someone out for a matter that is of concern to the climbing community.... that's not as cut and dry will be reviewed on a case by case basis until we nail down a clear rule on the subject.

Thanks for the feedback on the topic.

Erik

NegativeK · · Nevada · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 40
Chris Blatchley wrote:
Even more reason to clarify what would get your post deleted with new minds behind the delete button
For the most part, I knew what would get deleted with Nick behind the wheel
All too frequently, giving someone feedback on why their post was deleted gets a really nasty response. Definitely not always, but all too frequently. The internet's a nasty place, and nobody's really figured out how to have thousands of people interact with each other in a way where everyone's happy.

The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air wrote:
Heavy handed moderation kills forums.
Light handed moderation turns forums into bags of greasy buttholes.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 23,295
MP Team wrote: 
Anyway, to the OP's question - doxxing is a clear violation IMHO and the post needs to be deleted. Calling someone out for a matter that is of concern to the climbing community.... that's not as cut and dry will be reviewed on a case by case basis until we nail down a clear rule on the subject.

Erik


Very well then, the following is mostly for your benefit, but might also be useful in informing our individual opinions on what the forum could or should (or not) be used for in such instances.
Note: This is a published journal article which refers to a few specific instances involving MP.com's community's use & participation in the subject at hand:

Institutional enforcement, signaling, and deliberation: Rock climbers attempting to maintain rules and norms through social sanctioning (David Paul Carter)

I also think that it is important to read the whole thing if you are interested, not just to skim it if you really want to understand its implications.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 964
MP Team wrote: Thanks for the thread, Chris, and to everybody else for voicing your opinion.

I get the frustration on both ends - too much moderation vs too little.... keep things on topic vs. killing the community ownership of the forum.

At the moment, the prime catalyst for deleting a post is when another MP'er flags it, pure and simple. A flag doesn't mean a post will automatically get removed, it just brings that post to my attention for review. Some posts are clearly jerk-y and thus easy to remove. Others, however, are deep into that grey zone..... which requires a deeerp dive to make the call. And then entire threads come sometimes go way off the rails, but the MP community self regulates and brings it back.... how to treat those?

Anyway, to the OP's question - doxxing is a clear violation IMHO and the post needs to be deleted. Calling someone out for a matter that is of concern to the climbing community.... that's not as cut and dry will be reviewed on a case by case basis until we nail down a clear rule on the subject.

Thanks for the feedback on the topic.

Erik

Wow, didn't know Nick "retired"! Thanks soooo much, sir!

And Erik? Thanks for putting up with us. I truly am for the free speech end of the spectrum. Often, well, most of the time, somewhere around page 3 or 4, threads run off on a tangent. By 7ish? Deep into it. But somewhere in there? Some of the best stuff happens, either where Jim Titt or rgold come in with the minutiae of a technical point in a wildass tangent, or, a heated, snarky debate drags in some thoughtful posts.

That last? Is where I have jumped in, now and then, and ended up with friends, people I look forward to meeting in person some day. How does that happen? I think it's because a conversation, a real one, has taken root. Personalities come out and we are all able to size each other up, when those conversations are a little more "real".

Besides, it's also waaayyyyy more fun! I vote for a light touch by MP, but, the rest of us need to step up to the plate and jump in when someone's an ass.

Personally, I HATE threads being deleted. That gear distribution one, had a good amount of grief for the OP, but it also had exactly what was supposedly requested: "how does this usually work". That, is good info, even if sloppily obtained.

Best, Helen
Reformed Troll · · Western US · Joined Jan 2019 · Points: 1
MP Team wrote: Thanks for the thread, Chris, and to everybody else for voicing your opinion.

I get the frustration on both ends - too much moderation vs too little.... keep things on topic vs. killing the community ownership of the forum.

At the moment, the prime catalyst for deleting a post is when another MP'er flags it, pure and simple. A flag doesn't mean a post will automatically get removed, it just brings that post to my attention for review. Some posts are clearly jerk-y and thus easy to remove. Others, however, are deep into that grey zone..... which requires a deeerp dive to make the call. And then entire threads come sometimes go way off the rails, but the MP community self regulates and brings it back.... how to treat those?

Anyway, to the OP's question - doxxing is a clear violation IMHO and the post needs to be deleted. Calling someone out for a matter that is of concern to the climbing community.... that's not as cut and dry will be reviewed on a case by case basis until we nail down a clear rule on the subject.

Thanks for the feedback on the topic.

Erik

Thanks Erik, appreciate the time and response.
I'm hoping MP applies the standard definition of "doxxing" and doesn't rely on the users here for the definition.  Holy Moly.

Also, I hope you meant to type "derp" dive because that's a solid 7.6/10.

MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
Old lady H wrote:

Personally, I HATE threads being deleted.

I'm not a fan of it either. I've spent time trying to post useful info in threads only to see the whole thing get tossed. Doesn't exactly encourage spending time on thoughtful posts. In fact I'm probably more likely to post quick/lame jokes now because who cares if those disappear?

Chris Owen · · Big Bear Lake · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 10,831

Praise in public, criticize in private.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,107

to be honest with you, unfortunately i think publicly shaming asshats (like chippers, rock graffiti artists, people getting caught stealing gear, etc) has a lot of upside.  in the end, there are really only a couple things that will change a person - violence and intense public scorn.  "empowerment" lasts about 30 seconds - kind of like when you see those late night commercials from a children's hospital and you get that deep feeling, only to find that it has evaporated by the time you found your checkbook.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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